Ep. 165 - Dr. Kevin Chapman - The Mentally Tough Way of Mastering Our Emotions

[00:00:10] Dr. Rob Bell, Dr. Rob Sits Down With Athletes, Executives, and Expert Coaches To Talk About Mental Toughness And Their Hinge Moment. Here's your host Dr. Rob.

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[00:01:49] right, it will help you understand the purpose of it, not being ashamed, but shame as an emotion, meaning. Shame is a response to failing to meet a personal standard and feeling less than others as a result. I break a team rule. You know what I'm saying? My whole team has to run because of me. They didn't do anything. And yet it's my fault. Should I experience shame? Well, I certainly hope so, right? If I'm going to be prideful and entitled, oh, well, it wasn't my fault, bro, but it was your

[00:02:18] fault. Shame gets you to make amends and to correct what you did. And the irony, doc, is once I've done that, then it goes away. That's the whole function or purpose of shame. But the problem is that when people develop thinking patterns from trauma, from learning experiences from their family of origin, from poor relationships with people, they develop thinking patterns that are constantly, constantly, you know, reminding them that there are no good, that they're worthless, that they're

[00:02:48] inadequate and they stay in a chronic cycle of shame. And that's not to be confused with the emotional experience of shame, which is godly and adaptive. Our guest today, excited about this conversation. He's a licensed clinical psychologist. He's director of the Kentucky Center for Anxiety

[00:03:17] and Related Disorders. Known him for years. He specializes in cognitive behavioral therapy. And he received his doctorate at the University of Louisville. His undergrad was at Center College and where he was a two-sport all-conference athlete in track and football. His book is called Mastering Our Emotions, Biblical Principles for Emotional Health. Excited for this guest today.

[00:03:47] Dr. Kevin Chapman. Dr. Bell, my friend. Good to see you again, man. Yeah, likewise. I always like to start out the conversation, man. Again, we've known each other for years, but in reading your book, and I enjoyed that one a lot, man, especially with emotions. But you mentioned like Chick-fil-A in that book, which I thought was really, really important, man. Talk to us about your relationship with Chick-fil-A. Man, listen, Chick-fil-A, you're not sanctified unless you eat Chick-fil-A, man.

[00:04:14] The only thing on the menu at Chick-fil-A to me is the number two, spicy chicken sandwich all day long, man. I love Chick-fil-A. Chick-fil-A examples are good because most people can relate to them. And yeah, Chick-fil-A, man, it's a blessing to eat at Chick-fil-A. I always, whenever I'm speaking to like parents or athletes, I always say like the only thing after a sporting event isn't like where we're going to be going to eat. It's what we're ordering at Chick-fil-A, right? Yep. Number two. Man, those, I'm really a big fan.

[00:04:44] I don't do them a whole lot, but I love their, I love that frozen lemonade, man. That frozen lemonade is legit. And the key lime lemonade that's seasonal, which I hate when things are seasonal because it's like the most fire drink they have. Yeah. The key lime one is good too. No, I love it, man. Um, the, uh, this book talk to us about before we kind of get into the content of talk to us about like, um, what was on your heart?

[00:05:13] Like I felt the need to write this book and that process of actually going through it. You know, that's a phenomenal question, doc. I think, um, it's pretty simple. I think as a licensed psychologist, I like to tell people that, you know, I've been training for years, you know, that decades really. And, um, you know, as a licensed clinical psychologist and a sports performance person, you know, really, as I've gotten closer to God, really what he started revealing to me is all this training you've had is really for a season for a purpose right now.

[00:05:42] And I knew what he was referring to, but you know, I really didn't know the, all the detail because God didn't really give you all everything at once. Right. So, you know, as I'm training, studying anxiety, studying CBT, studying, helping people, I have a servant's heart. I like to help people, right. That's why I'm in the field. Ultimately, I'm at a conference one day. This is crazy, bro. And I'm at a conference and we're doing worship. And all of a sudden, God just kind of spoke to my heart and said, it's time to write it. And I knew what he meant when he said it, because he had just kind of been downloading it to me.

[00:06:11] And I kid you not, bro. I remember where I was standing and everything. When I got back on the plane after that conference, I literally got my MacBook out and started typing. I mean, it just started flowing, flowing, flowing. I mean, it didn't take me long to write it just because it was always in my heart. So that's one of those things, man, where I call it a God moment because, you know, you call it the hinge. Like the hinge is one of those things, too. And I think that that's what happened with me is that I knew in that moment in time that

[00:06:36] it was time for a book that people that are in the body of Christ struggle with emotions. They don't really talk about them. They can be stigmatized by them. You know, and God really pressed on my heart to start writing it into, you know, so people can get downloads and understand how to practically apply principles to change their lives forever. No, I love that answer, man. I love how you also have a lot of applicable workbook situations that are in this book.

[00:07:02] Talk to us then about, you know, doing it on your own strength is one thing. Like, you mean you could get it done, but then when you do it through, you know, God's strength, through the spirit, talk to us about what the difference is in your life when you're doing something through the spirit. Yeah, man. I like to tell people that I'm not a Christian psychologist. I'm not. In fact, I'm a Christian who happens to be a psychologist. There's going to be one of my questions coming up, too, man. But go ahead. Go ahead.

[00:07:30] You know, but but it's it. But seriously, though, because in my own strength, as you and I both know, like we've been trained a lot, bro, extensively. Like I can delve into my brain, my hippocampus and pull things out that I've learned through scientific inquiry and study. But when the Holy Spirit partners with you and you allow him to work through you, his word comes alive. And, you know, ultimately, scriptures come to remembrance things I couldn't think of with my own brain coming to my remembrance structure of even writing things coming to

[00:08:00] my remembrance. These are all things that I call divine appointments and God moments. You know, again, me sitting down and trying to write on the one hand and just kind of racking my brain, you know, face plant emoji, that sort of thing is when it's in my own strength. But when things were just flowing, saying, write this, say this. No, use this scripture. Erase that one. Do that one. I know because I'm sensitive to it. Doc, you know this because we have a relationship. But like when you have a relationship with somebody, you learn how to hear their voice.

[00:08:29] You learn how to know that it's them talking to you. You know, their wants, needs and desires. You know, your wife, you know, she's like, why'd you bring me flowers when you know I like quality time? Like when you spend time with people, you start to realize their flow and their heartbeat. And that's essentially what happened when I'm writing this book. No, I appreciate that, man. I've, you know, early on, especially like develop that relationship with, well, you know,

[00:08:57] when we talk about like the hinge, I mean, Jesus was the ultimate hinge, right? Because from that moment on, everything was different. Yep. Whenever I'm doing these podcasts too, like I've got my notes, but I kind of want to go down on this one, right? Like, so when Jesus is in the temple of Jerusalem and, you know, sees the money changers, sees everything going on and, and, you know, has that anger, but then uses that.

[00:09:23] Talk to us about like that emotion there, because again, being free from sin, lay that part out to us and how that ties into emotions. Cause you put that in the book really, really well. Yeah, I appreciate that. And I think what you're referencing is that, you know, one of the things I'm very intentional about is that many of us believers are not bottom line is most people judge their emotions, doc. They don't like them. They think that emotions are a sign of danger and threat. Like you're not supposed to be angry. You're not supposed to feel shame. You're not supposed to feel guilt.

[00:09:52] And ironically, that's simply not true. The problem's not our emotional experience. The problem is how we've learned keyword, which is throughout the word of God learned, right? So you have learned. So don't learn to respond to emotions a certain way. And anger is a key example. Anger is one of those emotions that can be self-destructive depending on how I respond to it. But most people don't know how to really define anger. Anger is in response, a natural response to victimization, intentional injury, or insult.

[00:10:22] Anger prompts all of us to defend ourselves. You think about Jesus in the temple, the example you mentioned. Bottom line is, you know, we can use terms like righteous anger, which we can go down that trail. But the bottom line is that Jesus's anger in the temple was a good example of the criteria of anger being met and his response was appropriate. So when we think about righteous anger, which meaning there's things we're supposed to be angry about as believers, like morally speaking.

[00:10:50] But anger, when the criteria is met, requires us to draw a line in the sand, requires us to defend ourselves and our loved ones. And there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, that's a godly thing to do is to respond to anger in a way that's defending ourselves and our loved ones. And that's exactly what Jesus did in the temple, which is why that's a good example. I think that guys are in touch with anger pretty well, don't you think? I think so.

[00:11:22] Sadness, on the other hand, like, you know, it's only been really since getting married and having kids that sadness was I able to kind of welcome. And you talk about that in the book, like that wave of emotion of sadness, because I couldn't really do anything with sadness. What am I going to do with that? Right. Anger, now I can direct that. Yep. Like, I can use that. But talk to us kind of about the, what are the differences in those, just those specifically? Yeah.

[00:11:49] And I'd say this, you know, this is an interesting question because I'm looking on my wall and one of the interviews I did with the Wall Street Journal, you'll like the title, Doc, it says, in men, anxiety can often look different. Ironically, you didn't say anxiety. But the reason I point this interview out is because what I say in this Wall Street Journal interview is the very thing you're asking, because we're socialized to be hypermasculine oftentimes. Anger is one of those things that's easy for a guy to acknowledge.

[00:12:14] But what I often find is many of us as dudes struggle with anxiety, but it's manifested by anger because it's a socially appropriate display of emotions for most men, right? Especially sport culture, as you know. So that's interesting, right? Because anxiety in that case often is one of those things that I don't want to manifest and show because it shows a sign of weakness or stigma when in reality, anger oftentimes is the manifestation of anxiety with guys.

[00:12:40] Now, sadness to your point, a universal emotion, just like anger is, just like anxiety is, is in response to a personal setback or a loss. And sadness prompts us not to take a step forward like many of us as guys often do, Rob, to try to distract ourselves, to get busy and things. But when in reality, sadness is the opposite, is trying to prompt us to take a step back initially so that we can process the loss, so that we can gather our resources so that

[00:13:09] we can then move forward and accomplish tasks. And that's interesting, right? Because most emotions typically get us to move forward, to pay attention to things. Sadness, on the other hand, is one that says, wait a second, you need to chill out. You need to take a step back. You need to process the loss. Well, that's going to be hard. I'm going to cry. Yep. But what happens when I respond to sadness that way? Well, I'm going to cry. Yeah. But if you do it long enough and process it, the sadness dissipates on its own, just like anger does, just like anxiety does, just like fear, disgust, et cetera.

[00:13:40] You talk about in the book, the song and especially the worship music, and that's one of the tools of that song, Good, Good Father, which is a great song. But that one brings forth a lot of emotion for you because that was a day as well when you heard it in service when your dog died. Yep, exactly. And I think that that's a great example is because though that song is saying you're a good, good father, which in worship, in reality, that would prompt us to be excited,

[00:14:09] to reverence God, so on and so forth. But depending on the memory association that we have attached to various songs or various emotions, we can respond to them in a way that makes sense to some people. Like you referenced that, like Good, Good Father, which is an awesome song to praise God to and worship him. Like my dog passed away. We had to put him down years ago the night we had to go to church and serve in the middle school ministry. And like they would start playing that song and those chords tore me up.

[00:14:38] And so even the chords of a song can trigger us to have certain emotions, even though the intent and the lyrics behind the song may not at all imply that. Hey, good looking.

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[00:15:37] What happens to an individual if they, you know, because I understand then what you're saying, like there's, there's always emotion like behind the anger, right? It's going to be anxiety. I would say fear, but as we'll get into the difference between fear and anxiety, but what happens if someone doesn't process and deal with the sadness? What eventually goes on? Yeah.

[00:16:04] So, you know, oftentimes doc, we talk about, you know, the negative feedback loop of emotions and sadness as an example is a good one because when we think about chronic sadness, just as this is simplifying it, but when we think about chronic sadness, we're really talking about depression at that point. And it's interesting as a scripture that speaks to that Proverbs 12, 25 says anxiety in the heart of man causes depression, but a good word makes it glad.

[00:16:32] So it's interesting because it really references this idea that there's thinking patterns attached to it. So if I'm responding to sadness by taking a step back, isolating and withdrawing and not really processing anything, not really responding to it the way that it's intending to, then that becomes chronic. Right. It creates a thinking pattern, but it also creates symptoms of depression, which leaves me in a deeper, darker pit than what the sadness initially intended.

[00:16:59] In other words, it's kind of like saying this doc, like many times when we have a loss of a loved one, right? It's important to go from grieving to mourning. And if you stay in grieving, that's going to lead you to have chronic sadness and become depressed in many people. If you have a propensity toward that. Mourning, on the other hand, is acknowledging that that's sad. That's a loss. That's culturally universal. However, it's now I'm having a memorial of that loved one. Now I'm doing this in remembrance of them.

[00:17:29] Now I'm wearing this pin on my jacket to remember mom, dad, right? Hey, that's mourning. And that takes you to a healthier stage of navigating the sadness that you want to experience. So mourning is grieving in action. Indeed. Mourning is grieving in action. And that's a really good soundbite way to put it. That's exactly what it is. I'm pretty good at one liners. Yeah, bro. I know. I like the way you put that though, man. That's awesome.

[00:17:57] With, you know, obviously there are a lot of books. And tools and kits on emotions. But you tie this into faith and biblical perspective. Yep. I guess before we delve real deep into the book, one of the pieces that I think Christians struggle with is they know they're sanctified. Yeah.

[00:18:27] But living in the spirit, living the fruits of the spirit. I think oftentimes, and correct me if I'm wrong, I think oftentimes, and I'm not talking about non-believers, but believers, we still operate as in I'm a no good sinner. Yep. And we don't really accept that message of what Jesus did for us and the renewing of our mind, the renewing of our spirit and how we are a new creation. Right. I wonder if you could talk about that. Yeah, I think that's a great point.

[00:18:52] And I think ultimately what I find, Doc, is that so many of us as believers, we never really transition from the old covenant to the new covenant. And I think that if we have a wrong understanding and perception of the nature of God, that's going to keep us trapped. Many of us, I find, have this old covenant mentality of God. He's mad at us. We got this angry guy we serve. He's the God father, not God, the father. You know what I'm saying?

[00:19:17] And so it's this idea that he's waiting for me to mess up, open the ground and swallow me. Why? Well, in the Old Testament, he had to relate to his people that way. Right. Hence the law and hence the law not being bad. It was us and it pointing us to the need for a savior in Jesus. So I think that often part of it is doctrine. Frankly, I think many times we take scripture out of context. Good example. You know, Romans 3 23 says all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Most people stop there, though.

[00:19:47] But after that, it says being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. And it goes on to say other things. I say that to say, as we first bro, we have to understand. And, you know, this is transformative of both of our lives is when we know the nature of God, that he loves us, that it's the goodness of God that leads us to repentance, not him striking, saying turn or burn like some people preach. The bottom line is that it's his love and his goodness. That's the gospel. The gospel is the love of Jesus. Right.

[00:20:16] So ultimately, when we understand that, we can then lay thinking patterns at the altar. We can then lay our old selves at the altar, realizing it's not based on you're going to like this because this is what you and I do. It's not based on our performance. It's not based on that at all. Right. As many athletes say, it's based on our relationship, not our works and our performance.

[00:20:42] Well, one of the verses that you have to see put in the book, you know, Second Corinthians 517. Right. If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature. Old things passed away. Things have become new. I don't mean to mess that one up if I have. But I think a lot of times when we can read that, it's like, I'm not going to have any problems anymore. Right. I'm a new creation. I'm a new creature. But the same issues arise.

[00:21:10] But now we have a different path. Yep. We're plugged in differently than just trying to do it on our own strength. But talk to us then about when we become a new creation, when that happens. Yep. What's the big misconception? I guess let's start with that. What's the big misconception? I'm not going to have any problems. Things are going to be great. But it's like, I still have these issues. Talk to us about that. Yeah, that's a big misconception in and of itself.

[00:21:38] One of my favorite scriptures is 1 Thessalonians 5.23. It says, May the God of peace himself sanctify you completely and may your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Couple that with 1 Corinthians 6.17. It says, he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with him. I could go on and on. But what I'm trying to illustrate here to answer your question is that the only thing about us that changes the salvation is our spirit.

[00:22:08] And I think ultimately so many of us have this misconception that when we get born again, literally our thinking patterns change. Everything about us, our memory associations change. That trauma that happened to me. Oh, what are you talking about? I don't know what you're talking about. I wasn't traumatized last month. Right. So we have this misconception that when we get born again, everything is peachy king. Now there's scriptures to speak to that not being true.

[00:22:32] But ultimately, the bottom line is that we all have this false assumption that everything should be different now. And the bottom line is that our spirit is 1000 percent packed now with the DNA of Jesus. God sees us the way he sees his son. And that won't change at that point. However, what has to occur is us actively pursuing God's word, his relationship,

[00:22:57] because his word is how we know his intent for our lives in order for our hearts to be transformed, which really in the Greek is cardia, meaning inner man, meaning thinking patterns, memories associations. I got to be in the word, doc. I got to learn how to change the way I think. I got to learn how to not think like my mama Nim taught me. Right. So all that stuff has to be reprogrammed. Hence the scripture you reference. Romans 12 to being transformed by the renewing of your mind. Right.

[00:23:27] So the bottom line is we can't renew our minds unless we're in the word rubbing elbows with other believers. Iron sharpens iron. Right. Proverbs 27, 17. Bottom line is we got to lock shoulders with other believers. And that's how we change. So the misconception is that everything radically is transformed immediately once I give my life to Christ. And that is far from true. But it most certainly is something that we change in the soulless realm, so to speak, through getting in the word and having a relationship.

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[00:24:25] If you use the code DRB15, you get 50% off or use the link below. Stamina Pro. How do you see the evil one, Satan? Because I grew up thinking, well, that's ridiculous, right? Right. Yep. I'm in charge of my thoughts. But there are so many, and you talk about that in the book as well, as these automatic thoughts and then have the automatic negative thoughts.

[00:24:53] But talk to us about how does Satan work when it comes to our thinking? Oh, my goodness gracious. So, you know, there's so many scriptures that speak to that. But just one I'll mention that speaks to that because I always like to use the word as our reference, right? So 1 Peter 5, 8 tells us to be sober and be vigilant. For our adversary, the devil walks about like, not as, but like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. My question, Doc, is are we going to be whom he may devour?

[00:25:22] So when we think about that whom he may, it's we have to position ourselves to be thinking clearly and be vigilant, not hypervigilant, because that's driven by anxiety and intense emotionality. Because his whole intent, they call him the accuser of the brethren. If somebody is the accuser of the brethren, that implies that they're going to try to, excuse me, present to you another narrative. And anytime somebody is an accuser, that means they're going to say, are you sure? Think about what happened in the garden. Right.

[00:25:51] It's like, oh, God doesn't want you to eat that. Why? Because your eyes will be open and you'll be. What did you do to Jesus in the wilderness? Bottom line is that the enemy uses the same tactics that he used with Adam and Eve, that he used with Jesus, that he uses with us. And that is this. My wife likes to say this, Doc. Shout out to her. She says, you know, you can't control a bird flying over your head, but you can control a building in this.

[00:26:18] And the bottom line is that's how the enemy works, is if we think on things long enough and surround ourselves with the wrong people, the things we watch, the things we listen to, they quote unquote don't bother us. And that's not true. All of that stuff starts to infiltrate our brain, our neural pathways, our hippocampus and memory center. And we start thinking on those things. And that's how the enemy can cook us is by getting us to think different, which causes us to act different, which causes us now to be in a pit.

[00:26:46] You sprinkle in some life, some tragedy. Yep. That's right. And when the evil one has that that foothold there. I like that analogy, man. And a bird flying, but not allowed to build a nest, man. That's a good one, man. We got a lot of good one-liners going on here, man. Hey, man, I'm trying to keep up with you, bro. That's all I'm trying to do. When in the book, shame and embarrassment.

[00:27:16] But talk about shame specifically, because I see that a lot as really just holding a lot of people down in terms of shame. And I wonder if you could talk to us about that and why that became just a big role in your book. Yeah, shame's powerful because, you know, there's a verse that talks about, you know, for the joy set before him talking about Jesus. It says he endured the cross, despising the shame and it sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

[00:27:46] So we talk about Jesus despising shame because he saw us on the other side of going to the cross. That's why he did it. And yet so many of us struggle with the emotion of shame. So there's often a disconnect between as a believer, should I experience shame? Question mark. Right. And the short answer to that question, which is a hot take, but true, is absolutely you should. Because if you understand what shame is, right, it will help you understand the purpose of it. Not being ashamed, but shame as an emotion.

[00:28:16] Meaning shame is a response to failing to meet a personal standard and feeling less than others as a result. I break a team rule. You know what I'm saying? My whole team has to run because of me. They didn't do anything. And yet it's my fault. Should I experience shame? Well, I certainly hope so. Right. If I'm going to be prideful and entitled, oh, well, it wasn't my fault, bro. But it was your fault. Shame gets you to make amends and to correct what you did.

[00:28:45] And the irony, Doc, is once I've done that, then it goes away. That's the whole function or purpose of shame. But the problem is that when people develop thinking patterns from trauma, from learning experiences from their family of origin, from poor relationships with people, they develop thinking patterns that are constantly reminding them that there are no good, that they're worthless, that they're inadequate, and they stay in a chronic cycle of shame.

[00:29:13] And that's not to be confused with the emotional experience of shame, which is godly and adaptive. Yeah, well said. Do you think that's where the evil one then just keeps those thoughts? That's exactly what it is, bro. And that's what I was going to say as well. Amen to that, is that that's what keeps the negative feedback loop going. That dialogue is, well, see, you're no good because you screwed up again. See, he tries to get our eyes on performance, right? On works, on works. Performance and works are synonymous, right? And that's exactly what he does. See, there you go.

[00:29:43] You messed up again, Dr. Rob. Like, you did it again. Like, you're not worthy. Exact same tactics he used against Jesus. I've always found that the tempter then automatically becomes the accuser. Yep, 100%. What? Yeah, that's good. I mean, you've dealt a lot with so many different maladies and mental health. I mean, where do you see addiction coming into play with emotions?

[00:30:12] Yeah, you know, it's interesting because I see addiction and emotion as being inseparable because any addiction someone has by default is typically going to be in response to an emotional experience that they're not able to manage well. In other words, like when people have addictions, think about it. Any addictive behavior that someone develops over time, now we can talk tolerance and withdrawal and predispositions and things. We know that that's the case. But you don't just wake up and become addicted. That's not how it works.

[00:30:42] Though you might have tendencies toward it if the stars align in a negative way. So what I find 10 out of 10 times is if anybody has an impulse control problem, whether that be with pornography or gambling and things like that, which we call addictions, but low key, they're impulse control disorders. But that's another podcast. But I say that to say addictive behavior and impulse control problems are all emotional behaviors in response to negative emotions. I'm trying to manage sadness. I'm trying to manage anxiety.

[00:31:12] I'm trying to manage fear, shame, guilt. And I'm doing it in ways that here's the paradox, doc. Drinking, for instance, makes me feel better temporarily. But it backfires and perpetuates the cycle of the very emotion I'm trying to navigate. So now I'm stuck in a feedback loop of simply trying to feel better in ways that backfire and make me feel worse. That's essentially what addiction is. And that's essentially what any problematic behavior is. Mm-hmm. The cause and solution to all of life's problems. Yep. Exactly.

[00:31:42] That's what I heard. It was, you know, you didn't have really a drinking problem. You didn't have a pornography problem. You had a pornography solution. Because it did. It temporarily worked. Temporarily worked. And that's the problem. Yeah. But that was the only coping mechanism. It was the only route in dealing with those emotions. Exactly. That's exactly right. In the book as well, you refer to, and this is probably my favorite part, but being brave. Mm-hmm.

[00:32:11] And you quoted, obviously, Ephesians, put on the armor of God. Yeah. And you might be able to withstand, I think it was the, is it the wiles of the devil? Wiles, yep. We don't say that word, but it was wiles. Yeah. Talk to us about that. Man. And this is something you and I do, not only with high performers and athletes, but also with our, you know, clinical people that we see and people we minister to. And being brave is essential for any walk of life, bro.

[00:32:40] And I'm very intentional, as you know, in the book about being brave and putting on your armor. And the thing I always like to say is that our armor is offensive armor. We draw a line in the sand and we are to confront, not to withdraw and retreat and wait for things to happen to us. We got to be proactive. So being brave in the book, the way I lay it out, I like this too, actually. I'm glad you said that, is that it's very structured. Being brave is saying, you know what, let's make a menu of situations that you struggle with, that trigger intense emotions in your life.

[00:33:10] And let's write them down. Let's rate how uncomfortable they are. And let's put our hands to the plow and go to battle. So you basically start picking off your enemy, whether that be public speaking, whether that be small talk, whether that be saying hi to someone new at church, because I'm socially anxious in the things we label ourselves, right? Whether that be, you know, sitting on a toilet seat, whether that be getting in an elevator. I mean, I'm giving randoms because that's essentially what a lot of people struggle with, low key that they don't like to talk about.

[00:33:38] So being brave is about taking all the skills that I talk about throughout the book, you know, being renewed in your mind, being present with God, learning how to be here, not two hours from now, two days ago, learning how to identify how you avoid emotions and things like that. And then you put all those skills together and practice in advance, identifying situations that trigger me to have intense emotions. And I, one by one, confront them until I'm renewed. Why did you say small talk?

[00:34:08] Yeah, because, you know, here's my soundbite for that, Doc. Small talk is the building block of any relationship. Think about that. Any relationship starts with small talk, except your family of origin. That's the only exception, right? And social anxiety disorder, quote unquote, is the third most common mental health condition in the world. It's the number one most prevalent anxiety disorder. And why am I saying that? You know, everything I say is on purpose because small talk is a part of that.

[00:34:33] And people who struggle with social anxiety, which, by the way, public speaking is the number one fear in the United States by far. Fun fact. Small talk is something people who often struggle with social anxiety find very uncomfortable. So ultimately, the building block of any relationship is small talk. Small talk, by definition, is two to five minutes. You can have small talk with anybody. You can have small talk in a line at Starbucks. You can have small talk with the barista saying, you know what?

[00:35:02] I don't know what all that lattes I do because I'm a coffee guy. But, you know, it's like, what would you recommend if I like chocolate? That opens the door to small talk. And you find that people are gracious and you learn you can actually do it. So it's interesting. I have no problem with public speaking whatsoever. Yeah, neither of us do. But a lot of times I do struggle with small talk. And the reason being is because, you know, especially with like the Enneagram, I'm a performer, right?

[00:35:30] Like if I don't see kind of the, if I'm meeting somebody in the connection piece, but I just struggle with it, man. Because I'm like, I don't see the end to it. You know what I mean? Like, let's just, we got stuff we got to do. So, yeah, I understand. I don't like small talk either. That helps. So I guess purpose of this one is that's something I've got to start doing, right? I mean, being brave and put myself in a small talk situation.

[00:35:54] I mean, I can get legalistic on you if you want me to doc and just say, yeah, well, the Lord wants you to. And then that's all I have to say. Right. And you're like, all right, shoot, man. Okay. Want to listen to your favorite music, but you're sick of all the commercial interruptions and negative news today. Tune into KUKORadio.com. Music for your mindset. We're a commercial-free online radio station. Play nothing but hits.

[00:36:22] Our free iOS and Android apps are available for download at KUKORadio.com. Yeah. Yeah. Well played, man. But I do like that in the being brave, the menu of discomfort they put in there. Really well done. Thank you. Fruits of the Spirit, you know, in Galatians, right? Love, joy, peace, patience. Yep. Kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Yep.

[00:36:52] Your take on that. Talk to us about that. And you know what? I love divine appointments, man. You know, we have a great relationship. You know that. And you don't know what I'm going to say, but it's going to be good. It's really ironic that you asked me that question because I didn't expect you to ask me that question. Because my next book, I have a sports performance book coming out in the fall. I'll tell you about it another time. But I have another book coming out that I'm going to be writing that the Lord kind of prompted me to write. And I'll give you the preview now. It's called Activating Joy. Joy.

[00:37:19] So it's set up just like mastering our emotions, but it's really leaning more toward how do you activate positive emotionality as opposed to decreased negative emotionality. You see where I'm going with that? So you're the first person I've talked to about that. So I say that to say that fruit of the Spirit are basically the attributes of Jesus. These are all things we have access to. And these are all things that we can activate. The first three fruit are really about our relationship with God, right? Love, joy, peace. The second triad, if you will, are about our relationship with other people.

[00:37:49] And the third are about our own behavior as believers. Self-control, for example. Right? Faithfulness, as an example. The bottom line is that fruit of the Spirit, they call them fruit, right? It's one fruit with nine manifestations. So the bottom line is that that's if we lean in and get a hold of who we are in Christ, those should be natural byproducts of being spirit led. Right?

[00:38:15] So if I'm laying my life down, Doc, and I'm not trying to do Kevin and say, OK, I'm going to try my best to talk to this person and say, no, Lord, what would you want me to say to them? Can I sit through this situation even though I don't want to sit here for three hours in the flesh? Can I sit here and be patient? Yeah, because you gave me patience already. Thank you that I have supernatural patience. Thank you that I can have self-control. Thank you that I am a faithful person because that's who you made me in the Spirit. So it's all about learning how to live from the Spirit like you opened up our time together today

[00:38:45] and learning how to live in the Spirit by leaning into what the Word says, not what we've learned to think otherwise. I love that, man. It's righteous. Yeah. When you talk about then your next book, so emphasizing the positive emotions. Yeah, it's going to be fun, man. Talk to us a little bit about that. Yeah. And can I preface it? Why? Yeah.

[00:39:14] When I talk about these mountaintop moments that people have, right? Yeah. I mean, you just, bam, you just got a record, your best 200 that you've ever ran. Yep. It's a mountaintop moment, and then you're on there. Hats on the back. Way to go. All the hard work. It pays off. And then you got to come back off that mountain. And now it's like, okay, now what? Yep. The gold medalist experience it, medalists in general. People coming back.

[00:39:41] They're coming back down off the mountain, and they don't know what to feel. Exactly. That's kind of what I asked that question then. I mean, you take it any way you want. Yeah. Bro, hey, I got you. It's kind of like a two-on-one fast break. I'm catching it behind the neck. You know what I'm saying? Oh, man. Jam it. Throw it down. You know what I'm saying? So I say that to say that's a great question to preface that with. So like I said, activating joy, you know, we're going to talk about biblical principles for remaining in positive emotionality. And one of the things I'm going to argue in this next book, and one of the things I'll say

[00:40:11] to you to answer your question is that, Doc, just like we have downward spirals of emotion, just like what the athletes were talking about with these mountaintop moments, and they're experiencing positive emotionality, the problem is that they shift their attention immediately away from that to their circumstances beyond it. And the irony is just like when we think about downward spirals, like I have a negative thought that leads to arousal in my body. It leads to behaviors.

[00:40:38] It leads to more negative thoughts, more arousal, more behaviors, and I spiral, and now, boom, I feel bad. Just like that, we also have what's called upward spirals. And upward spirals make me intentional about thinking on something you said at the beginning of the call. You might not remember this, but I remember you said this. Being grateful when we pray in things, being grateful with our time together, having gratitude. These are all things that build the capacity, Doc, to stay in positive emotional cycles.

[00:41:09] But I have to shift my attention. See, it's not about changing thoughts when it comes to activating positive emotions. That's not true. Most people would think, oh, you got to think positive. Because 99% of people you and I know would say, just be positive. That's a half truth, though. You got to be positive, but you also have to be realistic. But the main point is I have to shift my attention to the positive to build the capacity to expect it. So it's about capacity building, bro.

[00:41:37] It's about me being intentional about being grateful, about me being intentional about finding silver lining. It's about me being intentional about taking ownership, meaning when I'm in a bad, negative situation, what are some things I can lay out to say that I had a positive influence even in the midst of chaos? I did a good thing in this situation. It's about building capacity for positive emotions. And when I do that, I learn to automatically, kind of like we have negative, automatic thoughts, we can develop automatic positive ones.

[00:42:08] I think gratitude and perspective, I just think they're superpowers. And gratitude is powerful. I have a show called The Sound Mind Show on YouTube. And the tagline is navigating all things emotions from a kingdom perspective. And one of the things I talk about, I have, I think, a three-part, a three-part series, episode on building gratitude. So people should check that out. Sound Mind Show on YouTube. But it's called gratitude. And I think it's three parts.

[00:42:37] That's why, in terms of being positive, it's not incorrect. It's just incomplete. Correct. I think an attitude of gratitude, yeah, some people are designed that way. And I admire them. But I think it's an action of gratitude. I think you have to be doing certain things. 100%. Whether it's pray, connecting with somebody, having the perspective, writing it down. Yeah. Gratitude is active. And I think, in fact, that's ironic. That's the title of it is attitude of gratitude. Because you have to build the capacity for it. And you have to be very active in staying in it. Yeah.

[00:43:08] In the book as well, talk about patience. Patience soul. Yeah. Yeah. Please, run with that one. The patient soul. So one of the things I talk about that's really important is really the first skill in the book, Doc. And that is what I call being present. And being present is based on Psalm 1611. It says, you should show me the path of life. In your presence is fullness of joy.

[00:43:35] If you're not experiencing fullness of joy, are you in the presence of God is the question. But here's what I like to say. You'll love the soundbite. Is that you can't really be in God's presence if you're not present. So the bottom line is I have to be very intentional about being present. And most believers, as you and I know, struggle with that. So what I did in this chapter, because it's very practical, my favorite part of the whole work, the book, which I call a manual. But my favorite part of it is I have a QR code in there that you scan it and download

[00:44:04] worksheets because this is a very practical application of the word. I think you know that. But for people paying attention and listening, the patient soul skill is an active way to get you in the habit of responding to emotions in real time in an adaptive way. It requires you to do two things. It requires you to breathe so that you can regulate the arousal in your body, followed by what I call what's your triad. All emotions have three parts.

[00:44:34] Thoughts, what I say to myself, feelings, which are physical sensations in my body and behavior. What am I doing? And when I'm in a situation that triggers an intense emotion, how do I respond in the here and now to what's important right now in a godly way? Well, the patient soul skill is something where it's like building a muscle. You have to practice doing this when nothing's happening so that it's automatic when something is. So what you do with the patient soul skill is you take a deep breath before I respond.

[00:45:02] Basically, like James chapter one, verse 19, it says, be swift to hear, slow to speak and slow to read. I'm taking a step back, breathing before I say something. I'm going to say, what am I thinking right now? How am I feeling in my body right now? What am I doing or feel like doing right now in this moment? And then once I've checked in with my emotional experience, I say, OK, God, here's how I need to react to what's happening in front of me. Not two hours from now, not 20 minutes ago. What's important to respond to right now?

[00:45:32] But I got to build the muscle for that because most people are not good at that, frankly. So they got to do it when something is like not happening. When I'm in the car driving, that's a good time to practice. I'm in the shower. That's a good time to practice. Right. So that when things hit the fan, I'm like, OK, I can react by using my patient soul skill and responding to the situation in an adaptive way. Amen. Yeah, man. You watch The Chosen? Oh, yeah. And The House of David is fire, too.

[00:46:02] That's what I've been hearing. I'm not on. Oh, bro. The House of David. Like, you need to watch that yesterday. You, specifically. Yeah. You'll love it. Yeah, I love it, Chosen. You know, especially as a family. I mean, how it illuminates. Oh, man. You know the word. Yep. Doc, what questions should I be asking that I'm not asking? Yep.

[00:46:28] You know, I think a question that you should be asking is many people you and I encounter, they think that the kind of change that is possible is temporary. And I think what I want to highlight is that the things I talk about in mastering our emotions, which come from the word of God and the science of psychology, which came from the word of God, by the way, is that this creates permanent change. When we're talking about being a new creation, we're not talking about you getting through a season of your life.

[00:46:57] If we're talking about using skills and tools that are found in the word of God that are backed by science, ironically, right? That will change who you are. My soundbite is, listen to me, you can't teach an old dog new tricks, but you can teach an old dog to become a new dog. And the irony of that is that when you get a hold of these skills, this creates new changes in neural pathways if you want to go that route with neuroscience. But ultimately, you're becoming a new person, a new creation.

[00:47:26] And I just want to be encouraging and still hoping those listening is that if you implement the skills and principles that we've talked about throughout this program today, you can change permanently who you are. And that is called good news. Love it, man. Doc, thank you so much for joining us and sharing. It really got a lot out of this, man. Thank you. Hey, man, bro. I appreciate it. Thank you.

[00:48:13] Mental Toughness with Dr. Rob Bell. To find out more about Dr. Rob, visit his website at drrobbell.com or follow him on Twitter at DrRobBell and subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast platform to get the next episode of Mental Toughness as soon as it's available. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.