Ep. 158 - Chas Narramore - Mental Game Advice For Young Players

[00:00:10] Welcome to Mental Toughness with Dr. Rob Bell. Each week, Dr. Rob sits down with athletes, executives, and expert coaches to talk about mental toughness and their hinge moment. Here's your host, Dr. Rob.

[00:00:38] I think I played 16 out of 17 weeks in a row. I was literally wiped out and didn't even really want to go to Q School. I made it to second stage and didn't play well.

[00:00:48] But, you know, that's one learning point that I would have, you know, loved to have had back and maybe loved to have had some guidance, even though maybe I don't know if I would have listened at the time because it's so hard to, you know, sit events out.

[00:01:01] But, you know, telling young guys that, you know, the mental side of things really is crucial.

[00:01:08] And, you know, even if you feel like you're going to go play well, if your body's telling you, hey, you're not, you've got to listen to your body.

[00:01:15] And, you know, I even relate it now back to junior golfers. You know, I see kids playing too much nowadays in junior golf and, you know, hey, it's okay to sit, sit back and skip a tournament and rest and get your body back ready to go for the, you know, the next one.

[00:01:31] So, so our guest today on the Mental Toughness podcast played collegiate golf at Middle Tennessee State University.

[00:01:51] He played professional golf for about nine years on Corn Ferry Tour, Latin America Tour.

[00:01:56] He was a collegiate golf coach at the University of Tennessee.

[00:02:00] He started Back Nine Coaching with his partner, Brooke Pancake, which we will talk about today.

[00:02:06] Back Nine Coaching is designed to help player development, golf recruiting, and help them achieve their dream of playing collegiate golf, giving players tools they need to succeed at the next level.

[00:02:18] Our guest today, I'm excited for this, is Chase Naramore. My man, Chase, good to see you, buddy.

[00:02:22] Yeah, thank you, Rob. I appreciate you having me on. I'm looking forward to it.

[00:02:26] Now, we've known each other for many years. I mean, how golf plays, right? I'm not even sure I remember where we met for the first time, man.

[00:02:34] Yeah, I think it was, I think I was either right out of college or maybe still in college.

[00:02:38] You were working with Scott Stallings quite a bit, and I think that's kind of how we met, I think, at Oak Ridge Country Club.

[00:02:45] Okay.

[00:02:46] It's been a while. It's been a while.

[00:02:48] Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense, man. That's good.

[00:02:50] Hey, well, let's start with this, man. I'm always fascinated just because of the time of year in Q School.

[00:02:55] Final stage just ended. I mean, you went to Q School eight times, man.

[00:02:59] Yeah, I think I went nine, actually. I went nine.

[00:03:03] Nine times.

[00:03:04] Nine times. Nine times to Q School.

[00:03:06] So, you know, I hear kids, they always ask me kind of about the experience,

[00:03:11] and especially guys that are coming right out of college going to Q School for the first time

[00:03:17] or even, you know, a couple times that they're starting out.

[00:03:19] But it's a very challenging atmosphere, you know,

[00:03:25] and I think that's part of what, you know, learning in golf and all the above is,

[00:03:29] is learning from your mistakes.

[00:03:31] And obviously, I failed many a times at it.

[00:03:34] But, you know, I was lucky to make it to final stage twice.

[00:03:38] At that time when I played, you know, you couldn't get your PGA Tour card.

[00:03:42] This year they were able to give a few cards out.

[00:03:45] But it is so grueling and such a long journey, too,

[00:03:49] because you've been preparing for your, you know, basically all year for, you know,

[00:03:52] the last couple months of, hey, I've got to play really well in these last couple months.

[00:03:57] But, you know, kind of the advice that I kind of give guys these days is, you know,

[00:04:01] it's just another golf tournament.

[00:04:03] The quicker that you can realize that it's just another tournament,

[00:04:07] the better you're going to play.

[00:04:08] Now, it doesn't obviously guarantee that you're going to succeed or play well or whatnot.

[00:04:12] But, you know, the guys that get through view it as another golf tournament.

[00:04:16] And that's a hard thing to do when you know there's a lot on the line.

[00:04:19] But, you know, it is a golf tournament.

[00:04:23] And, you know, it's obviously a stressful one.

[00:04:25] But, you know, the better you can handle that side of things,

[00:04:28] the better you're going to play.

[00:04:30] What's one of the memories that you have that kind of stands out for you?

[00:04:35] I really – the year that I got full status,

[00:04:38] and I think I finished maybe ninth or tenth in 16 maybe at final stage,

[00:04:47] I got a really good draw.

[00:04:48] I didn't play very well the first day.

[00:04:50] I actually made 18 straight pars.

[00:04:53] We were at the Bear Trap down in –

[00:04:55] Oh, yeah.

[00:04:56] Where is it?

[00:04:57] I think I said somewhere down there in Florida.

[00:04:59] And I was –

[00:05:01] Oh, look at the Honda.

[00:05:01] Yeah, the Honda.

[00:05:02] Yeah.

[00:05:03] So they played – there's two courses there.

[00:05:05] We played the Honda course and then another one at Fazio, I believe.

[00:05:08] And I got the easy course first,

[00:05:10] and I made 18 straight pars the first day.

[00:05:13] Nick Foto, bud.

[00:05:14] Yeah, the Nick – yeah.

[00:05:15] Yeah, and I just kind of got – I got lapped really.

[00:05:17] But in the end, I shot even par, even par for the first two days.

[00:05:21] I was like middle of the pack.

[00:05:23] But the last two days were supposed to be extremely windy,

[00:05:26] and especially the fourth round.

[00:05:29] I was able to – first off on the third round,

[00:05:33] I got to go play the Bear Trap course.

[00:05:35] And it didn't really – the wind didn't really pick up until about hole 14,

[00:05:41] which is when it gets really tough.

[00:05:42] But I'm six under going into 14.

[00:05:45] So I make par on 14.

[00:05:48] 15's obviously a really difficult par three.

[00:05:51] At the time, I mean, I think I've seen – I've caddied for Scott there once,

[00:05:56] and I think he's hitting like eight iron, seven iron, eight iron in that hole.

[00:06:00] I literally laid up on the hole.

[00:06:02] I back-footed a four iron in the left bunker and made bogey,

[00:06:06] just got out of there making bogey.

[00:06:08] And I shot five under that day.

[00:06:09] I shot 67 or 66.

[00:06:12] I can't remember if we played a par 71.

[00:06:15] But I go and shoot like one or two under the second day, finish ninth,

[00:06:18] and I was in the middle of the pack, the scoring average that day –

[00:06:22] the last day on the Bear Trap was like 77.8.

[00:06:26] And I shot 67 on that course the day before.

[00:06:30] So, you know, that was probably my best.

[00:06:32] And it was kind of luck of the draw.

[00:06:34] Obviously, I still had to play well, and, you know, it was not easy conditions.

[00:06:37] But that was one thing that's kind of stuck out to me.

[00:06:40] And you can always kind of – you always hear guys say,

[00:06:42] did I get the luck of the draw and the wave and this and that.

[00:06:44] But that one really, you know, definitely looked out for me there and –

[00:06:49] Yeah, absolutely, man.

[00:06:50] So that year on Corn Fairy Tour, how did that one, I mean, obviously go for you?

[00:06:54] What stands out to you about that whole year in reflection piece?

[00:06:57] Have you had time to reflect on it?

[00:06:59] Yeah, yeah.

[00:06:59] There's several things.

[00:07:00] I loved every bit of it, right?

[00:07:02] I mean, it was a dream come true.

[00:07:04] Would have loved to have played better.

[00:07:05] I actually got off to a really good start.

[00:07:08] At the very start of the Corn Fairy Tour there,

[00:07:10] we played six or seven firsts of the events are in South America.

[00:07:15] And I think I made six out of the first seven cuts.

[00:07:17] So, which kind of locked you in the rest of the year.

[00:07:20] Basically, it made enough cut – it made enough money to secure your spot

[00:07:23] the rest of the year.

[00:07:24] So that was nice.

[00:07:26] But, you know, looking back on it, it's hard to think about it.

[00:07:30] But I played too much.

[00:07:31] I played too many weeks in a row.

[00:07:33] I never really took a break.

[00:07:34] You know, your first year out,

[00:07:37] I feel like you almost kind of felt like you have to play,

[00:07:39] especially if you don't go out there, you know, top five or top ten

[00:07:43] and almost kind of secure your card for next year.

[00:07:46] It's almost like you're playing week in, week out,

[00:07:48] trying to lock in the next year.

[00:07:51] Whereas I mentally needed a break.

[00:07:53] I struggled towards the end and obviously did not retain my card.

[00:07:58] But, you know, then I had to go right back into Q school

[00:08:00] after I think I played 16 out of 17 weeks in a row.

[00:08:03] I was literally wiped out and didn't even really want to go to Q school.

[00:08:07] I made it to second stage and didn't play well.

[00:08:11] But, you know, that's one learning point that I would have, you know,

[00:08:14] loved to have had back and maybe loved to have had some guidance,

[00:08:18] even though maybe I don't know if I would have listened at the time

[00:08:20] because it's so hard to, you know, sit events out.

[00:08:23] But, you know, telling young guys that, you know,

[00:08:26] the mental side of things really is crucial.

[00:08:30] And, you know, even if you feel like you're going to go play well,

[00:08:34] if your body's telling you, hey, you're not,

[00:08:36] you've got to listen to your body.

[00:08:37] And, you know, I even relate it now back to junior golfers.

[00:08:41] You know, I see kids playing too much nowadays in junior golf.

[00:08:44] And, you know, hey, it's okay to sit back and skip a tournament and rest

[00:08:49] and get your body back ready to go for the next one.

[00:08:53] So, yeah.

[00:08:54] And that's why, I mean, it's totally different being a professional golfer.

[00:08:57] Or you have that need because it's like, well, it just takes one.

[00:09:01] It just takes one tournament to play well.

[00:09:03] And then I can kind of set it up.

[00:09:05] Or if it's like that pressure to take off.

[00:09:08] Where junior golf, yeah, I mean, you have to be able to pace yourself

[00:09:12] and let golf be golf.

[00:09:14] Because it's, I mean, I look at it as not only the physical piece,

[00:09:17] but that mental piece of just competing all the time.

[00:09:21] And you're competing against your peers.

[00:09:23] And sometimes, I mean, that can take a big hit.

[00:09:26] Yeah.

[00:09:27] And, I mean, you can relate both, right?

[00:09:28] I mean, like we were playing for a paycheck being professional.

[00:09:31] But, you know, a lot of these kids that, you know, do it not really

[00:09:34] at a professional level but a high level of junior golf,

[00:09:37] they're playing for a scholarship.

[00:09:38] You know, they're playing to, you know, get in front of some coaches

[00:09:41] and make coaches see them a little bit better based on their scores.

[00:09:45] So, I can relate very good to that.

[00:09:48] I feel like I think that that showcases, like, you know, it's the same

[00:09:52] in my opinion.

[00:09:53] Obviously, a paycheck is different than a college scholarship.

[00:09:56] But in the same, you know, you're still trying to put up a score

[00:09:58] on a daily basis.

[00:10:00] Daily.

[00:10:03] With – what's one of the memories in terms of, like,

[00:10:07] your junior golf career?

[00:10:09] You know, even before you got to MTSU, what's one of those memories, man,

[00:10:14] that really stand out for you?

[00:10:16] Yeah, I was lucky enough to win our state junior.

[00:10:19] The Tennessee state junior at the time was at Willow Creek in Knoxville.

[00:10:23] I'm from Kingston, Tennessee.

[00:10:25] You're outside of there.

[00:10:26] So, I've played Willow Creek quite a bit.

[00:10:27] And, you know, my junior career looked a little bit different.

[00:10:31] I didn't go to play AJGA events and all these tournaments that these kids

[00:10:35] are playing in now, the better players.

[00:10:37] So, I didn't have that opportunity.

[00:10:39] But, you know, I was able to play my way to the state junior

[00:10:43] and end up winning.

[00:10:45] I beat a really, you know, a bunch of good names.

[00:10:47] Jonathan Hodge comes to mind.

[00:10:49] I think me and him – I think I beat him in a playoff that year.

[00:10:52] He was a really good player.

[00:10:54] Played Corn Fairy for several years.

[00:10:56] And Wes Roach.

[00:10:58] Wes Roach was young at the time.

[00:11:00] He's a PGA Tour player.

[00:11:02] And, you know, it was just a great experience, obviously, to win.

[00:11:05] And that kind of got me to where I was.

[00:11:07] That was kind of the one tournament that kind of stuck out and stood out to coaches.

[00:11:12] Coach Turnbow at the time, he's now the Tennessee Golf Foundation Director,

[00:11:16] Witt Turnbow.

[00:11:17] He recruited me to go to MTSU.

[00:11:19] And he was obviously there.

[00:11:21] And it was just a really good showing.

[00:11:22] And that'll always be one of my best junior golf memories for sure.

[00:11:28] Yeah, love it, man.

[00:11:29] I caddied there at Willow Creek USAM qualifying when they had the 36 in one day.

[00:11:35] Yeah, that's tough.

[00:11:37] So hot in July, right?

[00:11:38] Like, it's so hot.

[00:11:40] Yeah, absolutely, man.

[00:11:42] So you kind of have fallen then on your journey.

[00:11:46] You finished playing.

[00:11:47] Then you end up coaching.

[00:11:49] And your assistant coach there at UT.

[00:11:51] Three seasons there?

[00:11:53] Yeah, I spent a semester at MTSU right out of the gates.

[00:11:57] Just kind of off of playing professionally.

[00:12:00] And actually won the state open, the professional side of things.

[00:12:05] And I was ready to kind of start a family and all of the above.

[00:12:08] So Coach Adams at MTSU gave me a spot on their team as the assistant coach.

[00:12:15] And probably a couple weeks after I took the job, I got a hint that I might could get that

[00:12:20] Tennessee, the Tennessee women's assistant job opening up.

[00:12:22] And, you know, applied for it.

[00:12:24] Came on the interview.

[00:12:25] Got the job, which was awesome.

[00:12:27] Had really good connections.

[00:12:29] And I'm from right.

[00:12:29] I was with Coach Pavone.

[00:12:31] Coach Pavone at University of Tennessee.

[00:12:34] And that was a blessing.

[00:12:36] I mean, you know, not many people get to jump straight to the SEC that quickly.

[00:12:40] Obviously, the SEC is a great, you know, a great conference.

[00:12:44] And that's going to get you to a high level.

[00:12:47] And most of those jobs will get you to go to another, you know, either a good mid-major

[00:12:53] school or even, you know, going to be a head coach somewhere at a good program.

[00:12:57] So, you know, that was the goal.

[00:12:58] And that was, you know, what we had actually had in mind.

[00:13:01] But once we got to Knoxville, got around my family, started having, you know, kids.

[00:13:06] And I've got two little ones.

[00:13:08] Cooper is five and me is three, fixing to turn four.

[00:13:12] We wanted our kids to be around parents and family and grandparents and things like that.

[00:13:16] So, we just decided to stay put.

[00:13:18] I loved my time at Tennessee.

[00:13:20] I was there for basically three and a half years.

[00:13:22] Coached basically college for four years.

[00:13:24] And really enjoyed it.

[00:13:25] It's kind of led me to where I'm at today.

[00:13:27] Absolutely.

[00:13:30] What's one of the biggest lessons you learned?

[00:13:32] Because obviously, I mean, being a player and then coaching two different skill sets.

[00:13:37] But I always think like the best coaches have been players.

[00:13:40] Yeah.

[00:13:41] But what is one of the things like you learned in those seasons there coaching, you know, collegiate golfers?

[00:13:48] Well, I think you and I talked a little bit about this earlier before the call.

[00:13:52] But, you know, I think kids are way better than what I was when I was younger.

[00:13:57] So, it was kind of neat because I'd kind of gotten out of it because I was, you know, focused on my career.

[00:14:03] You know, I didn't really think about junior golf or college golf.

[00:14:06] And I kind of got out of it and just focused on my professional career.

[00:14:10] And then when I got into college coaching on the girls' side, they were really good.

[00:14:15] We had some really good players.

[00:14:18] Mikayla Bardwell comes to mind.

[00:14:19] I mean, she shot like 64 in the regionals to make it to the national championship.

[00:14:24] I mean, so there was a lot of really good players.

[00:14:27] Was Bailey Davis there at that time?

[00:14:28] I was – I actually recruited Bailey.

[00:14:31] Bailey was not there.

[00:14:33] Bailey came in.

[00:14:34] I recruited Bailey to Tennessee.

[00:14:37] And then that was when I kind of stepped out.

[00:14:39] But, yes, I mean, I love – Bailey is one of the best.

[00:14:44] I mean, she is fantastic.

[00:14:45] Would have loved to have coached her.

[00:14:47] Have a really good relationship to this day.

[00:14:49] We go play quite a bit.

[00:14:50] But she is a fantastic person.

[00:14:53] But, you know, just the level of play, it didn't – like it wasn't as shocking to me.

[00:14:59] But, you know, just the amount of work ethic that they do have.

[00:15:02] Now, you know, you're going to always kind of be hit or miss there.

[00:15:05] But at the same sense, you know, the girls worked super hard.

[00:15:09] And I enjoyed it.

[00:15:10] I really enjoyed it.

[00:15:11] Yeah.

[00:15:12] So, I think oftentimes, let's say if this is the level, guys think that they're up here

[00:15:20] and need to be told that they're here.

[00:15:21] Yeah.

[00:15:22] Girls, I've always found, sometimes they think that they're here

[00:15:25] and they need to be told there.

[00:15:26] Again, it's generalization, of course.

[00:15:28] Yes, for sure.

[00:15:30] What did you experience during that time was different from coaching female golfers

[00:15:36] as opposed to working with guys?

[00:15:37] Yeah, great question.

[00:15:39] I enjoy working with female golfers.

[00:15:41] I think kind of like what you just said, their willingness to listen is a lot more than guys.

[00:15:48] Like I feel like sometimes guys feel like they know it and, you know,

[00:15:51] they don't want to listen to you and this and that.

[00:15:54] That's not for everybody.

[00:15:55] But a lot of guys feel like they're even a little bit better.

[00:15:58] So, sometimes you have to show them that too, right?

[00:16:00] You have to almost kind of – and that's the beauty of being able to do what I've been able to do

[00:16:03] is I can kind of still go out there and do it and show them that, hey,

[00:16:06] I can hit this shot or I can hit this chip.

[00:16:08] And, you know, it seemed like when I was around on the female side of college golf at Tennessee,

[00:16:14] I would go out there and chip with them and they were like, oh, you know,

[00:16:18] he actually knows what he's doing and can do it.

[00:16:20] So, they bought into it a little bit more.

[00:16:22] And going out there and playing with them and just seeing – you know,

[00:16:26] watching them let me hit shots for them and talk about how to do it.

[00:16:30] I think you just have a little bit more credibility.

[00:16:32] And I think that's where it was almost kind of easier to coach on the women's side

[00:16:38] because I think that is a really big part for women's golf is to play with men.

[00:16:45] You see some of your best female golfers, they play like guys.

[00:16:50] They're aggressive.

[00:16:51] And sometimes girls aren't as aggressive.

[00:16:53] And, you know, there's some like Michaela Bardwell, she's ultra aggressive.

[00:16:57] So, you know, there's a fine line between the two.

[00:17:00] But, you know, anytime that a female can mix it around and chip and putt

[00:17:05] and hit shots with guys, they're going to tend to get better, even whether it's speed,

[00:17:09] whether it be just imagination and all of the above.

[00:17:14] Mm-hmm.

[00:17:15] No, I appreciate you sharing that.

[00:17:16] Yeah.

[00:17:37] Hey, good looking.

[00:17:38] If you like this podcast and are already a badass but it's all way too complicated,

[00:17:44] then visit our website, drrobbell.com,

[00:17:47] and schedule a call with us to help capture your very own hinge moment.

[00:18:06] So, you finished coaching.

[00:18:08] And then I always say there's these hinge moments,

[00:18:11] and that's why we have this podcast that hinges one moment, one event,

[00:18:16] one decision that makes all the difference in our lives.

[00:18:18] It connects who we are with who we're going to become.

[00:18:21] So these doors that open are due to that hinge.

[00:18:24] And you and Brooke Pancake meet and have a conversation in terms of what the vision would be.

[00:18:30] But walk us through that moment.

[00:18:32] Yeah.

[00:18:33] It was tough, too.

[00:18:35] I mean, it was right after COVID.

[00:18:37] You know, we had just missed regionals,

[00:18:40] or we had just missed the national championship at Tennessee by two shots.

[00:18:44] And that was that round.

[00:18:46] Michaela Bardwell shot 64 to make it to national championship as an individual.

[00:18:53] But, you know, we got home,

[00:18:55] and we had knew that Judy's contract was up at that time.

[00:18:58] But we figured out, hey, we might have done enough.

[00:19:02] You know, I think if we would have made it two nationals, you know,

[00:19:05] the new AD with Danny White coming in.

[00:19:07] He's done a phenomenal job, obviously, at Tennessee.

[00:19:10] You know, we knew that there might be some change.

[00:19:13] But then, you know, when you get home, you hear the news.

[00:19:16] You know, she got let go.

[00:19:19] You know, what does that look like for me?

[00:19:21] I'm still in my fourth year, you know, new AD.

[00:19:25] I didn't have enough experience to get that job, which was fine.

[00:19:29] You know, obviously, things happen for a reason, and, you know, it's a blessing.

[00:19:33] But kind of how back nine coaching evolved is,

[00:19:36] I'm really good friends with Brooke's husband, Derek Rindy.

[00:19:40] He played at Chattanooga.

[00:19:42] A really good player.

[00:19:44] He's my four-ball partner now.

[00:19:46] We're both amateurs.

[00:19:47] Love it.

[00:19:48] You know, get to spend some time playing together.

[00:19:50] But we went down there one weekend.

[00:19:53] I was still, I guess I was the interim head coach at the time,

[00:19:56] and we just kind of went down there.

[00:19:58] Our kids are all around the same age.

[00:19:59] And she was at home with maternity leave and just said,

[00:20:05] hey, I'm getting hit with a lot of these questions from junior golf

[00:20:08] and what that looks like in my path.

[00:20:10] And she's like, you know, you're transitioning out.

[00:20:14] And, like, I didn't really want to move.

[00:20:16] I had multiple offers.

[00:20:18] And still, to this day, kind of get offers to kind of get back into the college coaching circuit,

[00:20:23] which is awesome and flattering.

[00:20:25] But, you know, we just decided to take a leap of faith and kind of jump in and give back to what we've,

[00:20:32] you know, all of the failures and all of the things that we have done through golf

[00:20:36] and through our junior careers, college careers, professionals, coaching.

[00:20:41] You know, we just have so – I feel like we have so much knowledge and expertise in that area

[00:20:46] to give to these junior golfers.

[00:20:49] And that's kind of how we got started.

[00:20:52] I wasn't a big fan of recruiters at the time when I was coaching.

[00:20:59] I just think they have, like, kind of a bad rep and things like that of just sending players

[00:21:03] just to try to, you know, get people off of their roster.

[00:21:07] So, you know, before I told Brooke that we would do this is, you know,

[00:21:11] hey, we've got to do this the right way.

[00:21:13] We're going to – you know, our name's on this.

[00:21:16] You know, people trust us.

[00:21:17] The golfing world knows us.

[00:21:19] So if we're going to do this, we're going to do it the right way.

[00:21:22] So we've built this consulting kind of recruiting in a little bit different of a way.

[00:21:28] Our goal is to, A, get to know the coach and the program and what they're looking for.

[00:21:33] And, you know, that sometimes is a little bit harder than others to try to get coaches on the phone.

[00:21:38] But, you know, once we have a connection, I think coaches really see a value in that of,

[00:21:45] okay, hey, these two know what they're talking about.

[00:21:46] They've seen good golf.

[00:21:48] They know what we're looking for.

[00:21:50] So we don't push players on coaches.

[00:21:54] Our goal is for the player to build that relationship up.

[00:21:58] Our goal is to stay in the background and help them mold that relationship up.

[00:22:01] And, you know, to me in this day and age with these kids, they need help with that.

[00:22:06] They need help communication and knowing how to talk to a coach and how to follow up and what to do.

[00:22:12] And so our goal is to help them in the background have those type of conversations and help sell themselves.

[00:22:19] And, you know, let the coaches and them have that relationship and let them form that bond of,

[00:22:24] okay, hey, I could play for this coach or, hey, I don't really like this about this and kind of go on.

[00:22:29] So a lot of things that we do is in the background.

[00:22:32] But also, you know, our job is to get to know what the coaches are wanting to make sure we're sending the right players to them.

[00:22:40] So it's a little bit different in a way of a consulting program.

[00:22:45] But, man, I've really enjoyed it.

[00:22:47] And, you know, there's nothing better than seeing a kid achieve their dream to go play college golf,

[00:22:52] whether that be at the University of Tennessee or, you know, at a junior college, right?

[00:22:57] Yeah, yeah, absolutely, man.

[00:23:00] Delving down this road, I think, I mean, you're more than a consultant, man,

[00:23:03] because I always say this about a consultant is somebody that borrows your wristwatch to tell you what time it is.

[00:23:09] There you go.

[00:23:10] That's funny.

[00:23:11] You can borrow that one too, man.

[00:23:12] But it's like, yeah, you're a coach.

[00:23:14] But so much of that is then building that relationship with these coaches in terms of what is it that they're looking for

[00:23:21] from golfers and then students as well and who's going to be a good fit for that program.

[00:23:26] Yeah, and I mean, again, there's so many things that are within our company.

[00:23:30] But, you know, and we always tell kids and families this too.

[00:23:34] Like, we have been in your shoes.

[00:23:36] We have played good rounds and we have played bad rounds.

[00:23:39] And we want to help, you know, in between all of it, right?

[00:23:42] I mean, you've got – I would have loved to have had an opportunity to have two people in my corner

[00:23:47] that have been where we've been and to give me guidance throughout the process.

[00:23:51] And it's not even about, you know, like what we check in with our kids weekly, biweekly,

[00:23:56] and just ask them how school's going, how life's going.

[00:23:59] You know, it's not all about golf for us.

[00:24:01] And we don't – we never want it to feel like it's just about golf.

[00:24:05] You know, it's a team, family.

[00:24:08] Just our job is – we don't care if you go play college golf or just want to go to school, right?

[00:24:13] Like, we want you to be happy and succeed at any level that you want to go to.

[00:24:17] And we want to be a part of that.

[00:24:20] You know, we're going to do everything we can to help you succeed and maybe play college golf

[00:24:25] or, you know, go Ivy League and go to school, right?

[00:24:28] I mean, it's perfectly fine either way.

[00:24:30] We just want to be a part of it.

[00:24:31] Yeah.

[00:24:31] So I think oftentimes when we think of college recruiting, parents, golfers only see the lights of D1.

[00:24:42] When – I try to preface this by saying the most powerful currency for an athlete and for a golfer is playing time.

[00:24:57] So when you look at the University of Alabama, when you look at their seven man or seven woman who never even gets on the bus,

[00:25:05] like, that's a great golfer.

[00:25:07] Like, that's a really, really good golfer, but they're not even playing there.

[00:25:10] And so I was wondering if you could kind of talk about that in terms of fit of an NAIA, a D2, maybe a D3 school.

[00:25:19] Maybe it is a lower level D1.

[00:25:21] But playing time becomes so important, right?

[00:25:23] Because this is – and I'm kind of leading you down this, but I don't think a lot of people realize, like,

[00:25:28] if you're playing Division I golf, yeah, you have the bright lights there.

[00:25:35] But that is a full-time job.

[00:25:37] Like, that is so difficult not only to be an engineering degree or a doctoral degree,

[00:25:42] if that's the route that you want to go, and play Division I golf.

[00:25:47] And I'm kind of, like, muddying the waters a little bit, but let's just talk about that.

[00:25:51] Let's just talk about playing time a little bit in terms of, like, the best currency when it comes to fit

[00:25:55] and where might be a good level to play.

[00:25:58] Yeah.

[00:25:59] I mean, I think that's, like, probably the number one question that we get hit with, right?

[00:26:02] I think, you know, everybody does have the bright lights of Division I,

[00:26:07] and a lot of people have that bright light, but they don't know what that means.

[00:26:12] They don't understand that it's getting up at 5 a.m., three days a week,

[00:26:16] and going to workouts before I have my 8 a.m. class, and then I get out at 12 o'clock,

[00:26:22] I go eat lunch, and I'm on the course at 1 until 7, and I have an hour and a half or two hours to study

[00:26:32] and then wake up and repeat, right?

[00:26:34] It is a Division I athlete, and there's a lot of Division II, you know,

[00:26:39] athletes that are a full-time job as well, but, you know, there's different avenues for different people.

[00:26:45] You know, your SEC, ACC, your Power Five schools might have a little bit more of a, you know,

[00:26:51] a stressor on them to play well versus a lower-level Division I program.

[00:26:55] So, you know, the goal is the only way, and you know this, being around golf,

[00:27:01] and I know it playing, and I always relate it back to where I was.

[00:27:06] And when I went to MTSU, we weren't very good.

[00:27:09] I got the opportunity to go play.

[00:27:12] And the amount of times that me and my freshman partner, Rick Cochran,

[00:27:18] he's from Paducah, Kentucky,

[00:27:20] the amount of times Witt told us that he was going to pull our scholarship

[00:27:24] and never let us play golf again.

[00:27:26] Like, we played so poorly sometimes our freshman year,

[00:27:30] but we had the opportunity to play.

[00:27:32] And I just think back to that, like if I would have been somewhere else

[00:27:36] and I would have shot those scores, I would have been riding the bench.

[00:27:39] But I was able to play, and I made it to NCAA regionals as an individual my sophomore year.

[00:27:47] My freshman year, I had a scoring average.

[00:27:49] This is embarrassing to say to a lot of people, but I had like a 77.8 scoring average.

[00:27:56] But I grew so much that year because I was able to play.

[00:28:01] And, you know, I could have went to the University of Tennessee

[00:28:04] and played on a very little scholarship,

[00:28:07] but I went to Middle Tennessee State and had the opportunity to play,

[00:28:10] and I wouldn't trade it for the world.

[00:28:12] So kind of that story being said,

[00:28:16] you really, the only way to get better in this game is play golf.

[00:28:19] And to compete.

[00:28:20] And not that you can't get good on the bench playing for an SEC team.

[00:28:26] That has nothing to say about that.

[00:28:28] You can always get better depending on the work ethic.

[00:28:30] But playing in tournament golf is so crucial at that level to just develop and get better.

[00:28:36] So, you know, we always tell kids,

[00:28:39] you don't really want to go be the best player on the team,

[00:28:41] but you should be able to play in that three, four, five hole pretty quickly right when you get there.

[00:28:46] And if you're going and you're the eighth best player on the team,

[00:28:50] as much golf and as much practice and time and effort it is,

[00:28:54] you're going to hate golf if you're not traveling and being on that team.

[00:28:57] That doesn't mean that you have to travel every week.

[00:29:00] I mean, I'll never forget.

[00:29:02] I miss the first trip of my spring senior year.

[00:29:07] And I was devastated, right?

[00:29:10] But I was my senior year and we were really good.

[00:29:12] And I came back from winter break and didn't play well.

[00:29:16] And, you know, but that's the growing pains of college golf and how deep it's getting.

[00:29:21] You're not guaranteed to play every event,

[00:29:23] but you should be going to a university or a college that you have the opportunity to compete

[00:29:30] and play at on a high level, on a high basis time, time wise, for sure.

[00:29:35] Yeah, absolutely, man.

[00:29:36] And where college golf is going now with the new rules and the roster limits with division one,

[00:29:41] I think it's going to not only make division one extremely hard to get to,

[00:29:46] but it's also going to make division two, division three, NAI, junior college, even more competitive.

[00:29:53] So that, to me, that stigma of going just solely division one.

[00:29:57] And I have that conversation with new families a lot.

[00:30:01] That's like the first conversation that we have, like, hey, you know, this is where we're at,

[00:30:05] but it's not only division one.

[00:30:07] The division one, I think, is where those parents and kids,

[00:30:11] it's the only schools they really know about.

[00:30:13] Sure.

[00:30:13] But, you know, as you get into it, there's a lot of division two, division three teams

[00:30:18] that can beat division one teams.

[00:30:20] You know, there's so many programs out there that are really talented,

[00:30:24] even at a non-division one team.

[00:30:27] Yeah.

[00:30:27] You know, early on, so, I mean, your process starts, I mean, they become most effective,

[00:30:34] I'm assuming, like freshman and sophomore year of high school.

[00:30:37] Is that when?

[00:30:38] Yeah, it depends on the level, right?

[00:30:39] The better you are at the earlier the age, the better it is to start to reach out and get your name out there.

[00:30:46] But, you know, sophomore summer is your big summer where you can start to communicate.

[00:30:50] But it's really important to be able to, you know, start to have that process up and going before that time

[00:30:57] to where it's not like, oh, well, it's already hit me and I'm not even really prepared for it.

[00:31:01] So, you know, we tend to get kids started a little bit earlier if they can, if they're, you know,

[00:31:07] at the right ability and things like that to start reaching out to programs just to where once the process starts

[00:31:13] to where you can start communicating with coaches, we're ready and we're prepared for that.

[00:31:18] Where it's not like, because it's basically in the middle of summer and you're playing competitive golf.

[00:31:23] And if you're trying to scramble on how to get started on the communication side with coaches during summer golf,

[00:31:31] it's going to be struggle for you.

[00:31:33] So we try not to let it impact our golf.

[00:31:36] Our goal is to, you know, work on our fundamentals, work on getting better every single day on the golf course

[00:31:42] and let the recruiting piece take care of itself.

[00:31:45] Right, right.

[00:31:46] Amen to that, man.

[00:31:47] Yeah.

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[00:32:09] So what is a path then in terms of where players from state to state should be like playing

[00:32:18] if they have the highest of aspirations in terms of, like, you know, playing Division I golf at a Power 5 conference?

[00:32:26] Yeah.

[00:32:27] I think by the start of your, you know, after your sophomore summer, you should be playing some, you know, AJGA events.

[00:32:36] You know, AJGA is not the end-all, be-all, but it is the best, you know, junior tour that there is.

[00:32:42] You can play your state events.

[00:32:43] I mean, like, in Tennessee here, we have the SNEDS tour, which they put on elite events that are really good.

[00:32:48] You know, like your state junior, your PGA junior.

[00:32:51] You know, the invitations that you can get into are crucial.

[00:32:55] And try to play as much out of state as you can.

[00:33:00] I think college coaches really like to see you play in other competition other than with your friends.

[00:33:07] Because, you know, you grow up playing in your state, wherever that might be.

[00:33:11] And you get used to playing with your friends.

[00:33:13] And you start to know 20 or 30 of those kids, whether it be on the girls' or the guys' side.

[00:33:18] And you get kind of comfortable.

[00:33:20] But coaches really like to see you play out of the state as much as you can, right?

[00:33:24] Like, your bulk of your season is going to be in-state.

[00:33:27] But, you know, if you can add two, three, four, five tournaments out of the state throughout the year,

[00:33:32] I think it gives the college coaches enough information on you as a player to say,

[00:33:37] OK, hey, this player is really good.

[00:33:39] Or, you know, hey, he's just he or she's just playing tournaments that they're comfortable with.

[00:33:44] And they know the course is really well and all the above.

[00:33:48] So if you want to play high level now, you know, if you're wanting to stay closer to home,

[00:33:52] it's perfectly fine to stay within your state, right?

[00:33:54] But if you're wanting to venture out and play higher level and see where you can go,

[00:33:58] they're going to want to see you play out of the state as much as you can in as big a tournaments as you can be in.

[00:34:05] But, you know, if you're wanting to stay locally and you've got a really good program and you're a good player,

[00:34:10] you're going to get noticed, you know, by the local schools just playing your local tours.

[00:34:14] And it's not necessarily that, you know, other schools outside the state aren't going to pay attention to those local tours.

[00:34:21] But the majority of your traffic is going to come in state, which is perfectly fine too.

[00:34:27] Yeah. Yeah. Well said, man.

[00:34:29] Yeah.

[00:34:29] So give us a, well, I guess this question would be in terms of late bloomers.

[00:34:37] Yeah. Like talk to us about, because I always say this and it's, uh, depends on if I'm speaking, I'll show like a popcorn machine, right?

[00:34:48] And, you know, those kernels that are in there and they're all popping.

[00:34:50] I'll just say, look, we all, they all pop at different times.

[00:34:53] They don't all pop at once.

[00:34:54] So in terms of like the development, but like late bloomers, because I don't,

[00:34:57] I don't even think we know how good somebody can be till after puberty.

[00:35:01] For sure.

[00:35:02] Talk to us about that.

[00:35:04] If someone, let's say this is going to be a parent that's listening, their golf, uh, their son or daughter's like just starting to like really kind of come into their own in terms of,

[00:35:13] Hey, that drive that want, but, but also that ability.

[00:35:17] Talk to us about that, man.

[00:35:18] What have you seen from like late bloomers?

[00:35:20] Yeah.

[00:35:20] I mean, a great question.

[00:35:21] And you see this a lot.

[00:35:23] We're starting, you start seeing it more and more, you know,

[00:35:25] I think the level of play with junior golfers has gotten a lot better and it, and, and you see it more on the, on the guy's side than the girl's side.

[00:35:35] Cause guys tend to develop a little bit later, some too versus the girls.

[00:35:39] Um, but you know, in a, in the same sense, I think the biggest thing, um, trying to think about the correct wording, but if you're a late bloomer,

[00:35:49] communication becomes very important on your side.

[00:35:53] And, and it's not necessarily that you're selling yourself.

[00:35:56] It's just letting them know like, Hey, I'm, I'm a little bit late to the game, but I have a huge upside because, you know, Hey, a lot of these kids that you've been recruiting,

[00:36:05] you know, talking to the coach, they've been playing competitively for four or five years.

[00:36:09] I'm this good.

[00:36:10] And I've just been playing competitively for a year.

[00:36:13] Um, which to me as a college coach would be a good upside of like, okay, Hey, they're not going to be burnt out, you know, come junior year.

[00:36:20] They're going to be, they're, they're going to be kind of hitting their stride sophomore, junior year.

[00:36:24] And I'm going to really keep developing.

[00:36:26] So, you know, it's sometimes it's hard for kids to sell themselves.

[00:36:30] And again, I think that's where, you know, someone like ourselves kind of comes in and kind of helps motivate them to understand like, Hey, this is a good thing.

[00:36:38] It's not a bad thing.

[00:36:39] Kind of, you know, our goal is to always help them turn, turn a negative into a positive.

[00:36:43] How can we do that?

[00:36:44] And, and I think for a late bloomer, it's hard for them to be positive because they don't really have much to go off of.

[00:36:51] Uh, but it were, our goal is to help showcase what that looks like and how to, how to showcase it and help, help that late bloomer.

[00:36:58] Um, and, you know, have the understanding of two, even a late bloomer might not go division one right away.

[00:37:04] It's, it's okay to go to a junior college, develop for a year or two, and then go to, to a division one school or, or even go to division two and move up or, you know, what, whatever that might be.

[00:37:16] But, you know, as a late bloomer, and especially with how the rules and game is changing now, it might be to where you have to go to, uh, NAI junior college program and showcase like, okay, Hey, this kid, it was a late bloomer.

[00:37:30] It was kind of on our radar, but Hey, he just came out and had a, you know, even par scoring average his freshman year in college.

[00:37:36] Let's give this guy a shot.

[00:37:38] Um, you know, whereas maybe a late bloomer could have went to a lower level or mid major division one level, maybe a year or two ago and been the ninth or 10th best player.

[00:37:48] And, and the coach would have taken a chance on him.

[00:37:51] I don't think you're going to see that as much, uh, now with a roster limit.

[00:37:56] Um, but I, I mean, obviously I can be wrong cause there's some, there's going to be some that won't opt into the whole deal and won't have a roster limit and can take a few more guys.

[00:38:04] But I think coaches are going to be a little bit more picky on, you know, who they're going to choose and not necessarily be a project because a late bloomer can be a project, at least your freshman year, uh, in that development.

[00:38:16] So they, I think to me, the best bet would be to go somewhere where you're going to get those reps and, and, and competition in and prove yourself to those coaches.

[00:38:26] Like, okay, Hey, I've only, you know, I developed a little bit later in junior golf, but then I went somewhere developed for a year.

[00:38:33] Hey, give me another shot now.

[00:38:35] Like now your credibility gets even bigger.

[00:38:37] Yeah.

[00:38:38] Yeah, absolutely, man.

[00:38:39] I appreciate you sharing that.

[00:38:40] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:38:41] Now we get to the fun part, right?

[00:38:42] Parents.

[00:38:43] Yeah.

[00:38:43] Oh, I deal with them every day.

[00:38:47] So so many different angles.

[00:38:49] Like, obviously we have the, um, the stressed out parent out there on the golf course, uh, that, you know, the kids always looking at them.

[00:38:58] Uh, we have the parent that's up there spotting, right.

[00:39:03] They're always a hole ahead, just trying to spot balls, all that stuff, but, but totally stressed out.

[00:39:07] But then we never really see them what happens like off the course.

[00:39:11] And we never see what happens like behind closed doors.

[00:39:15] So I mean, that part's always gets difficult, but, um, you know, it's different when you have kids, man, because what I've experienced, and even though I've got some cred from my career and what I've done, um, kids don't want to listen.

[00:39:30] I mean, my son don't want to listen to me.

[00:39:32] You know what I mean?

[00:39:32] It's like, because, and this is what I figured out because I'm the same one telling them, um, you, you making your bed as part of this is part of the standard that we have in our house.

[00:39:44] Right here are the chores that you got to do.

[00:39:45] And you know what?

[00:39:46] You didn't mow that lawn as good as you can.

[00:39:48] We've got to redo that.

[00:39:49] Right.

[00:39:50] And even though I never have to tell them to practice, but it's the same voice and I don't think they can decipher that.

[00:39:56] And that's why I think it's so important to have outside people like yourselves to be able to speak truth into it because it's just the, it's not the message.

[00:40:05] It's the messenger.

[00:40:06] Yeah.

[00:40:06] So I know it's a long winded answer.

[00:40:09] Well, question, but my question is this is where do you see, like, um, what advice do you have for parents in terms of, you know, and beyond the, Hey, just have fun and watch them play and cheer them on.

[00:40:22] Like what advice do you have for them?

[00:40:25] Yeah.

[00:40:25] I mean, I, you kind of alluded to it a minute ago, but you know, you see so many, a wide spectrum of, you know, Hey, this parent is super hands-on this parents not hands-on enough.

[00:40:36] So, you know, I feel like I've, I've kind of seen both, both spectrums of it, but, you know, realistically the best advice that I can give parents and, you know, people might say something totally different than this, but, you know, as long as your kid is trying, which majority of them are at, at,

[00:40:55] at a level of trying to play, you know, competitively tournament, high level golf, however you want to frame it, you know, as long as they're out there with a good attitude, you know, they're trying now.

[00:41:07] Now, if they're not playing well, their attitude's probably not going to be the best.

[00:41:13] But I think a lot of times, I think the, the work ethic behind the scenes is not there when they're not playing good.

[00:41:22] So we, we've got to, as parents, I feel like we've got to really kind of not really worry about the score at hand, but how are we practicing before we get there?

[00:41:32] And, and those are the type of conversations that would be, I think, beneficial for parents to have with kids.

[00:41:38] Like, okay, you know, Hey, it's, it's okay that you haven't played well, but let's, let's look at how you've been preparing and figure out, is there a way I can help?

[00:41:47] Or, you know, is there, you know, are you needing something else or, you know, what avenue do we need to take to help you get in a better position?

[00:41:55] Because the majority of them are, I mean, I want to, I would want to say a lot of them, majority of them are trying everything that they got.

[00:42:03] Now, college golf or, you know, junior golf, any kind of golf at any level is hard.

[00:42:08] We all know that, but, you know, just trying to be as supportive as you can.

[00:42:13] But also let them understand that it's okay to make a mistake.

[00:42:17] It's okay to fail.

[00:42:19] I feel like I've learned this more than anybody is it's okay to fail.

[00:42:23] And that's a hard thing for a 16, 15, 16, 17, 18 year old to do.

[00:42:28] And it's hard.

[00:42:29] And I'm sure I've got young kids and I'm sure I'll struggle with this as well as watching them fail.

[00:42:35] Because I'm sure that's hard.

[00:42:38] I can't imagine what that looked like.

[00:42:40] And, you know, I need to, I'll probably want to listen to this in 10 or 15 years looking back on it as well.

[00:42:45] But, you know, understanding that it's okay to fail and you don't have to play your best at all times.

[00:42:52] You know, I know that might be a little bit off subject, but as far as like parents go, you know, don't do too much for them.

[00:42:58] You see in the junior golf world, you know, parents will get their clubs out of their car and carry them to the golf course.

[00:43:06] Like, it's just such a bad look, honestly.

[00:43:09] I mean, like, you know, let the kids take care of themselves.

[00:43:12] I mean, they should have snacks in their bags.

[00:43:15] And, you know, you can talk for hours on all that.

[00:43:18] But, you know, yeah.

[00:43:20] My favorite one, Coach, is right after the round when the parent starts pushing the cart.

[00:43:26] And then the kid goes automatically to the phone just trailing behind them.

[00:43:29] Like, that's my favorite scene, man.

[00:43:31] I love that one.

[00:43:32] There's a lot of don'ts.

[00:43:34] But, you know, in the end, you know, I think as parents our goal is to get them there, give them every tool that we can to help them succeed.

[00:43:44] And then let them, you know, just enjoy it.

[00:43:47] Right?

[00:43:47] I mean, like, there's a lot of kids and parents out there that, you know, maybe don't have this opportunity to even watch their kid play at this high level.

[00:43:56] You know, I just think back to my parents.

[00:43:59] Like, you know, looking back on it, was I probably not a very good kid at the time?

[00:44:03] I might not have been.

[00:44:04] But, you know, I was really appreciative of my parents taking me to wherever I was.

[00:44:09] And, you know, I don't think kids appreciate that enough.

[00:44:14] You know, I would love to see, you know, at the end, I mean, you really, the parents are doing a lot of the work.

[00:44:20] They're, they're, they're, it's a, it's a very expensive sport to be traveling as much as these kids do.

[00:44:26] So, you know, take, take time as a parent, take time to just enjoy the process.

[00:44:32] I think if you enjoy that process, it's going to put you in a better mindset.

[00:44:36] Right?

[00:44:36] It's okay to be hard on kids.

[00:44:38] It's okay to push your kids.

[00:44:39] But, you know, I always tell parents this, if you want your kid to play high level college golf or even college golf at that matter, it's, they're not going to get there based on how much you want it.

[00:44:52] The only way they're going to get there is how much they want it.

[00:44:55] And if, if you have to wake them up every morning to go practice or go tell them to go practice, their ability might be there, but they're never going to get there.

[00:45:05] Uh, and that's a hard thing for parents to, to understand.

[00:45:08] And, you know, I, I hate to, I mean, it sounds tough coming out of it, but, you know, there, there is no way that you can want it enough for them to go play college golf.

[00:45:19] Right.

[00:45:20] Um, it does not, I mean, you cannot, you can push them, you can help them, you can do all the above, but if, if they don't want to exercise and, and they don't want to, uh, eat better and they don't want to practice on their own.

[00:45:32] And, you know, they just, if they don't want to do that, it's a dedication.

[00:45:37] Uh, you know, I, I think back to a girl that I had committed to Tennessee, Kennedy Adams.

[00:45:43] She went to, she was committed to Tennessee.

[00:45:47] Uh, we got let go.

[00:45:49] New coach come in, didn't want her.

[00:45:51] Um, so she went to university of Alabama and now she's at Texas A&M, a really good player.

[00:45:57] And she said this, and obviously that's all those schools are a high level.

[00:46:02] You're, you're giving up a lot of your childhood.

[00:46:04] You know, I didn't go on beach trips with my friends and I didn't go to this or that.

[00:46:09] I went to playing a tournament.

[00:46:10] So it's a commitment to play at that level.

[00:46:13] Uh, and not only as on the kids, it's a family commitment too.

[00:46:17] So, you know, that, that is how it, that's how you make it.

[00:46:21] That's how you get to that, to that high of a level is a commitment level and it has to come from the kids.

[00:46:27] It can't necessarily come from the parents.

[00:46:30] Yeah, absolutely, man.

[00:46:31] I, uh, I love Kennedy by the way.

[00:46:33] Great girl.

[00:46:33] Yeah, she's great.

[00:46:36] Um, boy, man, I mean, there's just so many different avenues of that.

[00:46:41] Uh, the one that I always like is it's tough to be driven when you're being driven.

[00:46:46] I've had golfers at that level in the real difficult one is when you're good early.

[00:46:52] Now you can't quit.

[00:46:53] Now you're kind of entrapped, but you don't love it anymore.

[00:46:56] If you get to that level and you don't love it, you're in trouble because now it is a job.

[00:47:00] Um, you, you, you can't do anything without passion.

[00:47:03] If you're not passionate about it and you get to that level.

[00:47:06] Now there's a lot of expectations, a lot of different pressure, but you're entrapped

[00:47:10] because you're not going anywhere and you don't have that voice to be able to, uh,

[00:47:14] you know, because you're being pushed all these steps and it really wasn't you doing

[00:47:19] it was just you playing.

[00:47:20] And because you had some talent, that was great.

[00:47:22] Uh, those, those are dangerous situations.

[00:47:25] Yeah.

[00:47:26] It's tough all around.

[00:47:28] Right.

[00:47:28] I mean, like, you know, cause then, you know, once you get to a certain level, it brings

[00:47:32] on expectations, right.

[00:47:34] And anything that you do in work or in golf or in school or anything.

[00:47:38] Right.

[00:47:38] I mean, if you, if you're really good at something, it brings on expectations.

[00:47:42] And then when you, when you fall out of love or the desire to get better each day, it will

[00:47:49] in this game, especially it'll flat out, just knock you out.

[00:47:52] Um, so, you know, trying to find that balance.

[00:47:55] And I think that's the most important thing is, you know, in order to get better and that's

[00:48:01] the goal each day is to get better.

[00:48:03] We tell our kids, you know, all the time that we talk to them, how did you get better

[00:48:06] today?

[00:48:07] What did you do?

[00:48:08] When you show up to a golf course, you should have something that when you leave the course,

[00:48:13] you got better.

[00:48:14] If you, if you're, if, if that's not the case, then you, you've wasted your time.

[00:48:19] If you spent an hour and a half at a course and you don't feel like you got better for

[00:48:22] the day, you've had a bad plan before you get there.

[00:48:25] Uh, and, and I, I probably didn't learn that till college, uh, and maybe even some into pro,

[00:48:31] um, you know, and I, I, I think it's tough for kids to understand that.

[00:48:35] Right.

[00:48:36] Cause they, they don't have a plan and I didn't have a plan.

[00:48:39] So, you know, I can relate to that.

[00:48:41] I didn't have a plan when I got out of school at three 30 in a small town and I just went

[00:48:46] and played golf and, you know, I had no idea what I was doing, but now, you know, I think

[00:48:52] that's another great tool for, you know, someone like us is, is to try to help them.

[00:48:57] Um, they might not get it right away, but you know, if, if we start at 15, 16, by the

[00:49:02] time we're 17 and 18, like, Hey, we got this, like we were ready for college.

[00:49:06] And, and a lot of that's preparing you for college.

[00:49:09] Um, yeah, absolutely, man.

[00:49:11] And I, I mean, that's where I think back nine coaching, man, it's just such a great

[00:49:14] service about what you're all doing.

[00:49:15] Uh, have you and Brooke as trusted advisors and be able to help them out with that.

[00:49:20] Uh, every step along the journey, man, I just see it as huge.

[00:49:23] Yeah.

[00:49:24] Um, so I'm so glad that you're, uh, you're in the field, man, and helping athletes with

[00:49:29] that.

[00:49:30] Yeah.

[00:49:30] I appreciate that, man.

[00:49:31] I really do.

[00:49:32] Um, Chase, what questions should I be asking here that I'm not asking?

[00:49:38] Um, you know, I, I, I feel like I've, I've had this discussion a lot lately of, of how

[00:49:47] much tournament to play and especially for junior golfers.

[00:49:51] Um, you know, how much is, is, how much should you be playing?

[00:49:55] How much should you be developing?

[00:49:57] I think there's a misconception of this and especially, and you see this in all sports.

[00:50:02] Like, uh, I just feel like my brother's boys are in, are, are competing constantly in basketball

[00:50:07] and baseball and, uh, all kinds of sport, but you also see it in golf where kids, you

[00:50:13] know, especially in your, when you're in the seventh, eighth, ninth grade, it's a huge

[00:50:18] development.

[00:50:18] Your body's changing a lot.

[00:50:20] You're, you're learning new things.

[00:50:22] You're learning how you're, you know, you're learning how to play golf, but, you know,

[00:50:27] also in the sense of, okay, I'm learning how to play, but I'm also learning how to score

[00:50:31] really well.

[00:50:32] Um, but a lot of kids play too much.

[00:50:35] Um, I feel in my personal opinion, I think they play too much to the sense of, okay, how

[00:50:41] am I getting better in this game?

[00:50:43] How, what tools am I adding to my toolbox to help me get better to the next level?

[00:50:49] Yes.

[00:50:49] Am I competing?

[00:50:50] That's a big part of it.

[00:50:52] You definitely need to know how to compete at tournament golf.

[00:50:55] There's nothing, no substitution for that, but what are we doing in between those tournament

[00:51:00] rounds to help us get better?

[00:51:01] And I think that's a really good topic for parents and kids to understand of, and, and

[00:51:07] it has to go back to your swing coach and, and the people that are helping you develop

[00:51:12] is, you know, Hey, what, what is it?

[00:51:14] How can I get to that next level?

[00:51:16] What do I need to do?

[00:51:17] You know, asking those types of questions to the people around you to say, okay, here

[00:51:22] I am.

[00:51:23] This is what I've got.

[00:51:24] How do I get better?

[00:51:25] And, you know, and it could be, Hey, you need to go play more tournament golf, right?

[00:51:30] It could be that, Hey, you need more, uh, experience and exposure to tournament golf where

[00:51:35] it's 36 holes or 54 hole tournaments, whatever it might be, or Hey, you know, you're here right

[00:51:41] now, but we need to add a few tools to, to, to your, to your shot shaping ability or your

[00:51:46] short game area.

[00:51:47] And it's hard to implement new things when you're playing competitively a lot.

[00:51:54] Um, you know, so a lot of your off season needs to be adding tools, but then just kind

[00:52:01] of slowly implementing.

[00:52:02] Cause if you're at home and you're able to practice, you're able to put those under the

[00:52:06] gun a little bit more at home and really work on it versus like, okay, Hey, uh,

[00:52:11] I'll go work on my swing and I've got a, you know, a new swing thought and I got, Hey,

[00:52:16] I got to go play a tournament in two days.

[00:52:17] Well, you're, you get in that tournament.

[00:52:19] You're never going to actually do that swing thought, whether you may think you are or not,

[00:52:25] you haven't had enough time or reps to do it.

[00:52:27] And I mean, it takes months upon thousands of balls to implement swing changes.

[00:52:34] And I'm, I'm not saying that you need to play a tournament and take a month off and,

[00:52:37] you know, not, you know, go work on your game, but you know,

[00:52:40] there needs to be some time to develop.

[00:52:43] And, and, you know, I think kids struggle asking questions too.

[00:52:47] A lot of, there's another part to our company.

[00:52:50] I help kids on the course with player development.

[00:52:52] And that was something that I felt like I was really good at.

[00:52:55] And I don't think many people do.

[00:52:57] And swing coaches don't really have time to do.

[00:52:59] There's obviously some out there that, that take time for junior golf to,

[00:53:03] to get them on the course.

[00:53:05] But, you know, who, who they don't, they don't ask the questions to say, okay, when,

[00:53:12] when my shots overdrawing, you know, what am I doing?

[00:53:15] They, and, and you see at a higher level, you start looking at high level college golf.

[00:53:20] And even the pros, they know they're not hitting that next shot guessing.

[00:53:24] And a lot of times junior golfers guess, you know, they hit a foul ball.

[00:53:30] They're guessing on that next wing.

[00:53:33] And, you know, when you do that, I don't feel like you're, you're ready for that yet.

[00:53:37] You know what I mean?

[00:53:38] Like, and I think that goes to asking questions.

[00:53:41] So not being scared to ask questions.

[00:53:43] I think that's a really good topic to, to kind of talk to.

[00:53:47] And that's not only for junior golfers, but it's just for everything.

[00:53:50] Asking questions is, is the only way you're going to get better in this game.

[00:53:54] And I'm sure you, you've seen that a lot too.

[00:53:57] Yeah, it's so important, man.

[00:53:59] Especially just, I mean, they've got to have agency.

[00:54:01] They got to have their voice.

[00:54:02] They got to be able to use their voice.

[00:54:06] And no, that's great, man.

[00:54:09] Chase, I'm going to put the links on there, of course.

[00:54:12] And, but I'm glad we could connect here, man, and have our episode and,

[00:54:17] and really appreciate you, man.

[00:54:19] Yeah, I appreciate it.

[00:54:19] And thank you so much for having me on.

[00:54:21] I really enjoyed it.

[00:54:22] Listening to Mental Toughness with Dr. Rob Bell.

[00:54:51] To find out more about Dr. Rob, visit his website at drrobbell.com

[00:54:56] or follow him on Twitter at DrRobBell.

[00:54:59] And subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast platform

[00:55:02] to get the next episode of Mental Toughness as soon as it's available.

[00:55:07] Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.