Ep. 149 - Craig Harper - Appearance Or Experience Of Success

[00:00:09] Welcome to Mental Toughness with Dr. Rob Bell.

[00:00:13] Each week, Dr. Rob sits down with athletes, executives and expert coaches to talk about

[00:00:18] mental toughness and their hinge moment.

[00:00:21] Here's your host, Dr. Rob.

[00:00:38] And I think the interesting thing about is about personal growth for me in the real

[00:00:44] sense is personal development, self-help, whatever we want to call it that whole

[00:00:48] space that so many people play in or try to or you know for me it's not so much about

[00:00:54] what I do be and create and what I earn and own and all the achieve.

[00:00:58] It's a bit of that, but it's really more about who I become.

[00:01:02] You know because when I become the guy who can solve problems and perform in the middle

[00:01:08] of fucking chaos and become under pressure and be whatever a better version of me that

[00:01:15] very cheesy sounding cliche but whatever that means for me to be more loving, more

[00:01:20] compassionate, more aware, more evolved whatever that you know it's so much more for me about

[00:01:25] who I'm becoming then and who I'm helping and serving and I know that sounds cliche

[00:01:30] it's just true.

[00:01:31] I always say to people I gave selfishness a good go about 10 or 15 years.

[00:01:38] I really worked hard.

[00:01:40] That was my model was looking after me and I did it pretty well and I did it

[00:01:44] for quite a while.

[00:01:46] But ultimately I was mentally, emotionally and spiritually bankrupt.

[00:01:49] I had lots of stuff from the outside looking in my life was awesome.

[00:01:53] But the inside out experience was rubbish.

[00:02:27] Our guest today on the mental toughness podcast is it's another all see believe

[00:02:32] or not folks.

[00:02:33] He's based in Melbourne, but he's an author, podcaster and in a great

[00:02:39] speaker and coach.

[00:02:41] His podcast is the you project that'll be in the notes, but it's T.

[00:02:47] Y. P.

[00:02:48] And they have over 1620 episodes now my God, I mean, that's just awesome.

[00:02:54] Breathing life into life.

[00:02:56] Our guests today are going to enjoy this episode and get pretty deep.

[00:02:59] It's it's Dr. Craig Anthony Harper.

[00:03:03] Mate, my buddy.

[00:03:05] Glad you could join me.

[00:03:07] How are you?

[00:03:08] Sorry, man. Sorry.

[00:03:10] Hi, buddy. How are you?

[00:03:11] It's great to be here.

[00:03:13] So I always like starting out since humour is a big part of your life.

[00:03:16] And I think you do a really good job of integrating in it like like all sees, right?

[00:03:19] I mean, I always say you can you can hear him before you can see him.

[00:03:23] But what's a describe what a fuck would is?

[00:03:28] A fuck would is an idiot.

[00:03:30] OK, I figured.

[00:03:32] But you know, you know, the funny thing is in Australia, as you know,

[00:03:36] it can be a term of endearment.

[00:03:38] Like I would call my best mates, you know, fuck wits if they do something silly.

[00:03:42] And and I think that's the.

[00:03:45] That's one of the things that gets misinterpreted across culture is

[00:03:49] is sometimes if you if you are from the outside looking in,

[00:03:53] you might think oh, they hate each other or that's that's hard.

[00:03:56] That's harsh. That's horrible.

[00:03:57] That's but it's it's often really almost a term of affection, you know,

[00:04:01] like when, you know, it's like a lot.

[00:04:05] Like I'll tell my mates, I love them and I'll say I love you.

[00:04:09] But they a lot of them will say, yeah, love you.

[00:04:11] You know, it's almost like this punching on the shoulder affection

[00:04:16] because we don't want to be too direct or too vulnerable or too open.

[00:04:21] So we kind of find a way to say it without actually saying it.

[00:04:25] Yeah. So calling someone fuckwit, it can be an insult or it can almost

[00:04:29] be a term of endearment. OK.

[00:04:32] Yeah, I appreciate that, man.

[00:04:33] But hopefully that comes out like in our our episode today,

[00:04:36] because I know there's going to be a lot of problems get thrown out there.

[00:04:38] You do a good job of that, man.

[00:04:40] I can hold back. I can hold back.

[00:04:42] No, I'll do it, man. I want you to let it go.

[00:04:44] You know, I was thinking about this.

[00:04:46] I always like to start off the podcast kind of with like ease into it, right?

[00:04:51] Get something off the pitch.

[00:04:53] But.

[00:04:55] I wanted to start this one off a little special, man.

[00:04:58] I wanted to share with you a joke if that's OK.

[00:05:01] And ready.

[00:05:02] And the joke kind of goes like this.

[00:05:04] It was a in Aussie during World War Two and he arrives in London

[00:05:10] and right after the bombing of London,

[00:05:12] he's talking to one of the Brits as a soldier and the in the Brits says to him,

[00:05:16] it says, my God, mate, did you did you come here to die?

[00:05:21] And the Aussie is like, no, I got here yesterday.

[00:05:26] Oh, God.

[00:05:29] It's the best one I got, brother.

[00:05:31] Yeah, let's hope it gets better from now.

[00:05:33] Huh? Let's go. Come on.

[00:05:36] Hey, when when you're talking, right, how do you?

[00:05:39] I always start off my my talks.

[00:05:42] I just get right into it.

[00:05:43] Like, I don't think, hey, I want to thank the sponsors or thanks

[00:05:46] somebody for bringing me like I get right into the story.

[00:05:48] How do you start off like when you when you speak?

[00:05:52] When I podcast or when I'm on stage, when you're speaking,

[00:05:55] when you're in front of a crowd.

[00:05:56] Yeah. So, I mean,

[00:06:00] I think when you're talking to a crowd,

[00:06:03] you I mean, I did one yesterday, I did one the day before.

[00:06:06] I do a lot of that.

[00:06:08] But it's really for me, it's a blend of being real and raw

[00:06:12] and organic and intuitive and instinctive

[00:06:16] and trying to build an experience with people.

[00:06:19] So I will often in the first minute or two

[00:06:23] ask a question that people need to participate in

[00:06:27] so that I get some interaction.

[00:06:28] So I might walk on stage, someone's just introduced me.

[00:06:33] And I'll say something like, all right, before we get underway,

[00:06:36] I just I just want to get a sense of who you are,

[00:06:38] where you're at, put up your hand if you're an overthinker.

[00:06:41] And people go, oh my God, I'm an overthinker

[00:06:44] and all the hands go up.

[00:06:45] There's a hand up here.

[00:06:46] Right now I've got connection and interaction

[00:06:48] and now I'm developing rapport

[00:06:49] and now I've got them involved in 30 seconds.

[00:06:53] And then I say, and how's that working out for you?

[00:06:56] And they all roll their eyes and I go, shit, ours, right?

[00:06:59] And they go, yeah, no good.

[00:07:00] I go, all right, well, let's talk, let's lean into that.

[00:07:03] What is overthinking rumination about?

[00:07:05] Why do we do it?

[00:07:06] You know, and then we just start off.

[00:07:07] And rather than me stand up and firstly,

[00:07:10] nobody wants a presentation.

[00:07:12] Nobody wants a monologue.

[00:07:15] Nobody wants a lecture.

[00:07:17] People want to be amused and entertained.

[00:07:21] Yes, they want information.

[00:07:22] Yes, they want strategies,

[00:07:23] but they also want to like the person that's up the front.

[00:07:28] And so I mean, you and I have probably,

[00:07:31] I definitely have, I'm sure you have,

[00:07:32] you've been to presentations, workshops, conferences

[00:07:35] where the information coming from the stage is nine out of 10,

[00:07:40] but the connection is one.

[00:07:43] The experience is one.

[00:07:45] And so it's like, I know that.

[00:07:49] You know, people connect with stories and humor, Rob.

[00:07:53] Now, you don't have to be a brilliant storyteller

[00:07:56] or a stand up comic, but you do know that,

[00:07:59] you know, you when you share your science, your wisdom,

[00:08:02] in your research, you know, there's most people are not Rob Bell, right?

[00:08:08] And so you need to find a way to share your thoughts

[00:08:10] and ideas and strategies and science in a way

[00:08:12] that connects with people who are not Rob Bell,

[00:08:15] which is everyone except Rob Bell, right?

[00:08:17] And so for me, I'm very much interested in not do they like me?

[00:08:23] Is this information good?

[00:08:25] I'm initially the first five minutes.

[00:08:27] I'm interested in how do I build connection,

[00:08:29] report, trust and respect as quickly as possible?

[00:08:32] Because if I can do that or engagement or get a laugh

[00:08:36] because people connect emotionally with stories and humor,

[00:08:39] but not with data.

[00:08:40] So I want to build an emotional connection as quickly as I can.

[00:08:44] Love it, man.

[00:08:46] Are we building a connection?

[00:08:49] Dude, we are joined at the emotional hip.

[00:08:55] So you, like I introduced you, Dr. Craig Anthony.

[00:09:01] Tell us about your page.

[00:09:02] Can I just correct you?

[00:09:04] I'm sorry, I'm not I'm still a few months away, but thank you.

[00:09:07] Well, we don't know when this is going to be published, right?

[00:09:09] It could be by then.

[00:09:11] Yeah, that's right.

[00:09:12] I mean, knowing you and your research, you will be doctor.

[00:09:15] So that's how I'm introduced.

[00:09:17] You know, I wanted to be one of the inaugural ones to do that.

[00:09:20] Like share with us about your research, man, because it's

[00:09:23] I mean, the fascinating part, right?

[00:09:25] Like why don't why don't people change when they want to?

[00:09:29] Like, but talk to us.

[00:09:30] Talk to us about that path, that project for you

[00:09:33] and what you discovered from it.

[00:09:35] So the the Genesis, Rob, for my curiosity around metaperception,

[00:09:41] which is it's a specific kind of self-awareness,

[00:09:45] situational awareness, other awareness.

[00:09:48] The Genesis for that was having repeated experiences

[00:09:53] where I would go into organisations, be they corporations

[00:09:58] or sporting clubs or whatever, or even military or police.

[00:10:02] And there would be, you know, cultural problems,

[00:10:06] communication problems, interpersonal issues.

[00:10:11] And they would bring me in and say, listen,

[00:10:14] the culture's not great.

[00:10:16] You know, there's there's a few problems

[00:10:17] we just want to bring you in and talk around all of that

[00:10:20] communication connection problem solving integration

[00:10:22] teamwork, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:10:26] And then I would eventually meet the boss, Himo He.

[00:10:31] And I would say to the boss, sometimes something like,

[00:10:35] what do you think it's like being around you for your team?

[00:10:39] And the responses would range from, oh, my God,

[00:10:43] I'd never truly deeply thought about that.

[00:10:45] That is such a great question to I don't give a fuck.

[00:10:49] I'm not here to make friends.

[00:10:51] I'm the boss.

[00:10:52] Their job is to do what they're told and everything in between.

[00:10:56] And I realise that, you know, that not all the time,

[00:11:00] but more often than you might think that the problem was

[00:11:02] actually the person at the top of the the organisation

[00:11:07] or meant to be at the top of the organisation anyway.

[00:11:09] And so I was really just that whole idea of what is it

[00:11:12] like being around me, that question?

[00:11:14] And why does it matter?

[00:11:16] And does my ability to understand how other people perceive

[00:11:19] and process and experience me?

[00:11:23] Does my willingness to learn into that and my capacity

[00:11:27] to try to understand that?

[00:11:29] Is that an interpersonal advantage?

[00:11:31] Is that a good skill or trait to have?

[00:11:35] So if I want to lead, if I want to teach, if I want to coach,

[00:11:38] if I want to go on Rob Bell's podcast and make sense,

[00:11:41] I want to have an awareness of what I'm like in the moment

[00:11:44] for Rob and for Rob's audience.

[00:11:45] Is that an advantage?

[00:11:47] And the answer is yes.

[00:11:48] And then the next question is, well, how the fuck does that

[00:11:51] work? Right.

[00:11:53] And then is it trainable?

[00:11:55] Is it measurable and all of those things?

[00:11:57] And so, yeah, my my last five years has been around that

[00:12:01] has been about around researching essentially the question,

[00:12:06] what is it like being around me for others?

[00:12:09] And and again, it's not really coming from a place

[00:12:13] of insecurity or self doubt or do they like me?

[00:12:18] Right. It's really about what am I like for them?

[00:12:21] Because if I can understand, like even right now in this moment,

[00:12:26] it's dawning on me.

[00:12:27] Am I talking too much?

[00:12:29] Right. That's what we would call maybe situational awareness.

[00:12:32] Am I talk? Should I shut up right now and let Rob ask a question?

[00:12:36] Right. And so it's like that in the moment, awareness,

[00:12:39] what am I like for them to be around?

[00:12:42] And again, it's coming from a place of curiosity, not fear.

[00:12:45] And it's coming from a place of I want to build connection,

[00:12:48] better connection, rapport, understanding and interpersonal

[00:12:52] experiences with the people with whom I insect at work and outside of work.

[00:13:01] I've always found the toughest part

[00:13:03] of like the meta perception is in a podcast like we're doing here

[00:13:09] where you say some insightful things and now I need to be able to pivot

[00:13:13] and adjust and then be able to come on top of that and ask the question.

[00:13:18] That's that's where I found like the podcast and skills

[00:13:20] because I could just like blab on, but like who wants that?

[00:13:23] So my question, I guess with that is like, so

[00:13:27] what's what's the one part from this research that really dawned on

[00:13:32] because we all have these preconceptions heading in, right?

[00:13:35] And the test and the hypothesis and the thesis.

[00:13:38] But what's that one piece that really dawned on you that was like,

[00:13:42] shit, I never really thought about that angle before.

[00:13:46] Yeah. I think if we want to.

[00:13:50] Kind of step one or two levels down from meta perception,

[00:13:53] which is quite a kind of a high level cognitive thing, right?

[00:13:56] But step back down to

[00:13:59] meta cognition, which obviously you know what it is.

[00:14:03] But for the listeners that don't just is starting to think about how you think

[00:14:07] just having curiosity around.

[00:14:11] Why do I see the world the way that I see the world?

[00:14:14] Where did that come from?

[00:14:15] Does that serve me?

[00:14:17] Does that sabotage me?

[00:14:20] Where do my beliefs come from?

[00:14:22] Did I choose them or did they choose me by virtue of my situation,

[00:14:26] my family, my conditioning, my programming?

[00:14:28] In fact, where does my conditioning finished the programming of me?

[00:14:34] You know, I'm just a big biological computer and I've had

[00:14:36] my hard drive has been kind of programmed by my experiences

[00:14:41] and my people and my education and my church and my culture

[00:14:44] and my sociology in my country.

[00:14:48] And then trying to think about, wow, what if I had a clean slate?

[00:14:53] How would I think?

[00:14:54] What would I believe?

[00:14:57] How would I talk to people?

[00:14:58] How would I interpret data?

[00:15:00] What would I want to do be create?

[00:15:03] And so, you know, this is a kind of I think a real

[00:15:07] I think real self-awareness starts when we recognize our lack of self-awareness.

[00:15:14] It's like consciousness begins when we recognize how unconsciously we're living

[00:15:20] in this cognitive, emotional, psychological

[00:15:23] kind of behavioral version of Groundhog Day,

[00:15:27] where we just keep doing shit that doesn't work.

[00:15:31] And like how many people Rob say, well, one of my values is health.

[00:15:35] You know, when you say to anyone is one of your values

[00:15:36] physical, mental and emotional health, no one's going to say no.

[00:15:40] Right. Everyone goes, yeah, of course,

[00:15:42] I want to be physically, mentally and emotionally healthy.

[00:15:45] And then you say, OK, so does the way you live align with that value?

[00:15:48] And the answer of people being brutally honest is quite often, no, it doesn't.

[00:15:52] And then you say, cool, so let's not beat ourselves up.

[00:15:55] Let's just get curious about that.

[00:15:57] Why do you think that might be?

[00:15:59] You know, so for me, that's that kind of awareness

[00:16:03] is starting to think about how you think.

[00:16:06] And then the theory of mind starting to think about how other people think.

[00:16:10] I want to get curious about Rob's version of right now.

[00:16:14] I want to I want to walk away from my window and I want to come over to your

[00:16:18] window and I want to have a look through it.

[00:16:20] I want to see what it's like looking through the Rob lens at the world.

[00:16:24] And the Rob lens is your experiences, your beliefs, your values,

[00:16:28] your ideas, your pain, pleasure, you know, a bias, all of it.

[00:16:33] We've all got a window that we look through the metaphoric window, you know?

[00:16:37] And it ain't about understanding other people is not about agreeing with them

[00:16:41] or aligning with them, or even in some instances liking them.

[00:16:45] It's just about understanding their version of reality.

[00:16:49] Right. And if I can understand someone's version of right now,

[00:16:53] then even if it's somebody with whom I disagree

[00:16:56] or I'm having a problem or there's some kind of conflict,

[00:16:59] at least if I understand them,

[00:17:03] I can begin the kind of, you know, process of repair or healing

[00:17:08] or working side by side.

[00:17:10] I've always felt like when I'm disagreeing with someone,

[00:17:13] I think in this is probably from like Wayne Dyer,

[00:17:15] but one of his favorite pieces was he'd always say in the conversation,

[00:17:20] geez, I never really thought about it that way.

[00:17:23] And they're both right, like they're disarmed.

[00:17:26] It's kind of like, you know, you've said your piece like,

[00:17:29] man, I never really thought about it that way.

[00:17:32] I've used that one when getting heated and it's like, huh,

[00:17:35] you know, it's a really interesting take.

[00:17:36] I never thought about it that way.

[00:17:38] Yeah. You can borrow that one.

[00:17:40] I'm sure you use that one.

[00:17:41] Yeah, no, I'm going to. I'm jotting that down.

[00:17:43] I will take credit for that.

[00:17:45] You know, Anayas Ninh, who is a very well-known

[00:17:51] writer in the early 19th century, she said,

[00:17:54] and I'm sure she ripped it off.

[00:17:56] I think she actually ripped it off from

[00:17:59] the Talmud or something.

[00:18:00] But she said, we don't see things as they are.

[00:18:02] We see things as we are, which is a very well-born

[00:18:05] and well-known expression, but it's true.

[00:18:08] You know, and the courage and the awareness is in realizing that

[00:18:13] this is not the reality.

[00:18:15] This is my reality.

[00:18:16] This is my story, you know, because things happen

[00:18:20] in our external physical three dimensional world.

[00:18:22] Stuff happens.

[00:18:24] Life happens.

[00:18:25] And then we look at that objective event,

[00:18:27] that meaningless, otherwise meaningless event,

[00:18:30] and then we give it meaning.

[00:18:31] And we think that our meaning is the meaning, you know,

[00:18:35] and we live in our echo chamber of thought and belief

[00:18:37] and ideology and philosophy.

[00:18:39] And if you don't live in my echo chamber,

[00:18:41] well, clearly you're wrong, you know?

[00:18:44] But in truth, it's like, it's being able to say,

[00:18:47] look, this is what I think.

[00:18:48] This is, I mean, this is where I'm at all these years later.

[00:18:51] Where I'm at is, this is what I think,

[00:18:53] but I could be wrong.

[00:18:54] This is what I believe, but I could be wrong.

[00:18:57] And I know I could be wrong because I've been wrong

[00:18:59] about a million times before.

[00:19:02] So it would be overwhelmingly arrogant to think that

[00:19:05] this thing that I believe is unequivocally right

[00:19:08] and everyone who doesn't think like me in the world

[00:19:11] is unequivocally wrong.

[00:19:34] Hey, good looking.

[00:19:36] If you like this podcast and are already a badass,

[00:19:39] but it's all way too complicated,

[00:19:41] then visit our website, DrRobbell.com

[00:19:45] and schedule call with us to help capture

[00:19:47] your very own hinge moment.

[00:20:06] So when I come across people that don't exercise,

[00:20:11] it's really foreign to me.

[00:20:13] Like it's really tough for me to like get my head around it.

[00:20:16] And the reason why is because my whole life

[00:20:18] it's been a staple of what I've done,

[00:20:20] you know, play active movement.

[00:20:22] Like I've never always thought about exercises

[00:20:25] going to the gym, even though I think

[00:20:27] that's a big piece, right?

[00:20:28] They think working out like half the go to the gym.

[00:20:30] I've always looked at it as like play, movement,

[00:20:33] getting outside, like just moving.

[00:20:37] And so here's sort of my segue into that.

[00:20:43] So it's always been really difficult for me

[00:20:46] to identify with people that don't have habits,

[00:20:50] that don't have motivation, that don't have discipline.

[00:20:53] And all the self-help stuff is all about the discipline,

[00:20:58] right?

[00:20:58] Get the discipline, get the habits.

[00:20:59] And I'm totally with it.

[00:21:00] There's nothing bad with that, right?

[00:21:02] First you create your habits,

[00:21:03] then your habits create you.

[00:21:05] I'm not arguing that part at all.

[00:21:07] I just think it gets overcooked.

[00:21:10] That's my point.

[00:21:11] I just think that gets oversaturated

[00:21:13] in terms of the discipline piece.

[00:21:17] I wanted to ask you, what I think most people

[00:21:20] struggle with is the lack of belief in themselves.

[00:21:23] Like the lack of confidence.

[00:21:24] Cause if I really believe I can make that difference,

[00:21:27] I really believe I can make that change,

[00:21:29] it's gonna affect all the other mental skills.

[00:21:31] And why don't you take on that one?

[00:21:33] Yeah, I agree with you.

[00:21:35] And I think also there's another,

[00:21:38] I think imposter syndrome, overthinking, self-doubt,

[00:21:43] lack of self-belief,

[00:21:45] all of those things that are kind of in the same wheelhouse.

[00:21:51] I think there's another part to that.

[00:21:53] And that is that all of those things somewhat can coexist.

[00:21:58] Like I've done a lot of good stuff.

[00:22:00] I've spoken all over the world of blah, blah, blah.

[00:22:02] I've written seven books.

[00:22:03] I've done some great stuff.

[00:22:05] I've built businesses.

[00:22:06] I've employed 500 people.

[00:22:07] And I've also fucked up 1 million times.

[00:22:10] And I've got certain skills and certain knowledge.

[00:22:12] I'm good at some things and I'm bad at some things

[00:22:14] and I still get things wrong

[00:22:16] and I still get trapped in ego

[00:22:18] and I still want attention

[00:22:19] and all of that human bullshit, right?

[00:22:22] And I don't think there will come a time

[00:22:24] where I am ever completely devoid of self-doubt

[00:22:28] or a modicum of self-loathing

[00:22:30] or a modicum of imposter syndrome.

[00:22:32] And so it's just fine in a way sometimes to coexist with that.

[00:22:36] And also to realise that how I feel

[00:22:38] is not necessarily what is.

[00:22:41] Like do I feel like a fraud sometimes?

[00:22:43] Yep.

[00:22:44] Am I a fraud?

[00:22:45] No, I'm not a fraud.

[00:22:48] Do I feel like an imposter sometimes?

[00:22:51] Am I?

[00:22:51] No.

[00:22:52] Am I the best?

[00:22:54] Am I the worst?

[00:22:55] No.

[00:22:56] Do I have days where I'm a, you know,

[00:23:01] a nine and a half hour to 10 in front of an audience?

[00:23:03] Yep.

[00:23:03] Do I have days where I'm a rock solid four

[00:23:05] and I walk away and I'm absolutely embarrassed

[00:23:09] and where I think I could have, yeah, of course.

[00:23:12] So I think that, you know,

[00:23:14] I think sometimes Rob, we wait for all of that.

[00:23:17] We go, I've got to wait until I'm confident

[00:23:20] or you can't get fucking confident

[00:23:23] without being, it's like you can't become a black belt

[00:23:26] without being a white belt

[00:23:27] and getting strangled and choked and punched in the face, right?

[00:23:30] How you become a black belt,

[00:23:31] how you develop skill and strength and resilience

[00:23:33] and competence, how you learn to perform under pressure

[00:23:37] is by starting in the place where you lack skill,

[00:23:40] lack confidence, lack strength,

[00:23:41] lacks know-how, lack knowledge.

[00:23:44] That's where you start.

[00:23:45] And the doorway to that is just courage.

[00:23:49] You know, and yes, will you be good?

[00:23:51] No, you won't.

[00:23:51] Will you suffer?

[00:23:55] Yep, you will.

[00:23:56] Will you be embarrassed?

[00:23:57] Probably.

[00:23:57] Will you be the best in the room?

[00:23:59] Definitely not.

[00:24:00] Will you improve?

[00:24:01] Yes, if you keep doing it.

[00:24:02] Will you grow, learn, evolve, adapt?

[00:24:04] Yes, you will.

[00:24:04] Will you build resilience and skill

[00:24:07] if you keep fucking doing it?

[00:24:09] And you don't need to feel confident.

[00:24:12] You just want to.

[00:24:13] You don't need to feel calm.

[00:24:17] Like lacking, you know, feeling anxiety, feeling sad,

[00:24:20] feeling scared, welcome to the Human Club.

[00:24:24] It's OK.

[00:24:25] You know, if your default setting is 24-7 depression or anxiety,

[00:24:29] that's a different conversation.

[00:24:31] But for the stuff we're talking about now,

[00:24:35] you know, it's like I...

[00:24:37] Depending on what I'm doing too,

[00:24:39] and I can tell you, like, I'm not a brilliant academic

[00:24:42] and every time I've had to go and stand in front of

[00:24:45] what we call the Academic Board here,

[00:24:47] so there's four times through a PhD

[00:24:49] where you've kind of got to go...

[00:24:51] It's like going to court and you've got to plead your case

[00:24:53] and, you know, talk about your research

[00:24:56] and essentially why they should let you

[00:24:58] continue your PhD journey.

[00:25:00] So there's four times that that has to happen.

[00:25:03] I've done all four and I've got through, so I'm very grateful.

[00:25:05] But Rob, I was more terrified talking to those four people

[00:25:11] than I used to work on national TV

[00:25:13] and talk to a quarter of a million people once a week.

[00:25:16] I was more terrified talking to four people

[00:25:20] to try to defend my PhD because I just...

[00:25:25] It's not my natural habitat, academia.

[00:25:28] You know, it's like, for me, it's a slog.

[00:25:31] I'm a pracademic more than an academic.

[00:25:33] Can I do it? Yes, I can.

[00:25:35] But is it my natural habitat? No.

[00:25:38] But when I started, the first three months

[00:25:41] after I started my PhD, all I wanted to...

[00:25:44] All I could think about was,

[00:25:46] how do I get out of this without public humiliation?

[00:25:50] You know? Really?

[00:25:51] But yeah, 100%.

[00:25:53] But over time, you just go, oh, OK, well, I'm learning to...

[00:25:56] I can understand the academic at this level,

[00:25:59] the PhD process and writing and researching at this level.

[00:26:03] And now it's something that I'm comfortable with.

[00:26:06] But it took me five years to get comfortable,

[00:26:10] to build skill, competence, understanding awareness

[00:26:12] and some level of proficiency.

[00:26:15] But my starting point was, I'm shit-ass.

[00:26:18] I'm terrible at this. That was my starting point.

[00:26:23] But you still had... And I appreciate that, man.

[00:26:26] And you knew that you were going to...

[00:26:29] You knew, starting out, that no matter what,

[00:26:32] you were going to finish.

[00:26:35] Uh... I don't know. I'd really done...

[00:26:37] You went into that journey like, hey, how is this gonna...

[00:26:40] You didn't know no matter what it's going to take,

[00:26:43] I'm gonna finish this.

[00:26:45] I thought I did until I started,

[00:26:47] and then I realized how underwhelmingly ready I was.

[00:26:51] How ill-equipped I was.

[00:26:54] You know? And I went, oh...

[00:26:55] I'm not... Firstly, I didn't think I was that smart,

[00:26:58] but I went, well, I'm actually dumber than I thought.

[00:27:01] But it's all for me.

[00:27:04] It was all about ego and fear and laziness.

[00:27:06] Like a PhD, you cannot be lazy.

[00:27:09] You can be fearful.

[00:27:12] You can be anxious. You can be a lot of things,

[00:27:14] but you can't be lazy.

[00:27:15] Like you have to just...

[00:27:17] You have to do mountains and mountains and mountains of reading

[00:27:22] that you will not enjoy.

[00:27:24] So the end.

[00:27:26] Oh, yeah.

[00:27:27] That's just welcome to... That is what it is.

[00:27:30] You will write 100,000 words and chuck out 95,000 of them.

[00:27:35] You know, I always felt...

[00:27:36] I always felt when I was doing like my master's thesis,

[00:27:38] so it was probably the biggest one I ever wrote

[00:27:40] and it was giving me the biggest source of confidence

[00:27:42] because I was a shit writer.

[00:27:44] This is how bad I was.

[00:27:45] Going into college, you could test out of English 101, right?

[00:27:50] You just take this little test.

[00:27:51] You write a paragraph.

[00:27:52] You test out of it.

[00:27:53] You go to English 102.

[00:27:56] I was so bad, Craig, that I was in 010.

[00:28:01] Like I couldn't even go to English 101.

[00:28:04] That's how bad I was.

[00:28:05] So when I got to grad school, shit, man.

[00:28:08] Writing was bad.

[00:28:10] And it came so full circle.

[00:28:13] My professor handed me back every revision, just all tore up.

[00:28:18] I think he tore it up so much

[00:28:20] that the very first draft I handed in,

[00:28:23] like it probably came all the way back around

[00:28:26] where it was like the same thing, you know?

[00:28:29] But I mean, that's how bad that was every single day.

[00:28:33] And just being able to take it.

[00:28:34] But that's where it was like...

[00:28:36] How much shit can you take?

[00:28:39] Yeah, and also...

[00:28:40] Keep moving forward.

[00:28:41] Yeah, do you really want to get good at this thing?

[00:28:43] And it's like if we use the analogy of the gym,

[00:28:47] like how do you become strong in the gym?

[00:28:50] Well, you literally work against resistance,

[00:28:52] which is quite...it's called resistance training.

[00:28:54] So you go in the gym, you do something hard,

[00:28:57] you do something uncomfortable,

[00:28:58] you work against resistance.

[00:29:00] And if you do it the right way,

[00:29:02] right intensity for the right amount of time,

[00:29:04] you get physiological adaptation

[00:29:05] and you literally build strength and function.

[00:29:08] And, you know, you build muscle

[00:29:10] and your body becomes more capable of doing the hard thing.

[00:29:14] And eventually the hard thing is the easy thing.

[00:29:16] Yeah.

[00:29:16] You know, eventually the 120-pound bench is...

[00:29:20] That was...you couldn't even do a rep.

[00:29:22] Now you do 10 reps to warm up before you actually bench.

[00:29:25] But the weight is the same.

[00:29:27] The stimulus is the same.

[00:29:29] And now you are different because you are different.

[00:29:31] Your experience of those hard things is now different.

[00:29:34] And I think the interesting thing about is...

[00:29:37] about personal growth for me in the real sense is

[00:29:41] personal development, self-help,

[00:29:43] whatever we want to call it, that whole space

[00:29:44] that so many people play in or try to or...

[00:29:49] You know, for me it's not so much about what I do be

[00:29:51] and create and what I earn and own and all the...

[00:29:54] It's a bit of that.

[00:29:55] But it's really more about who I become.

[00:29:58] You know, because when I become the guy who can solve problems

[00:30:02] and perform in the middle of fucking chaos

[00:30:07] and become under pressure and be whatever a better version

[00:30:11] of me, that very cheesy sounding cliche.

[00:30:13] But whatever that means for me to be more loving,

[00:30:16] more compassionate, more aware, more evolved,

[00:30:18] whatever that...

[00:30:19] You know, it's so much more for me about who I'm becoming

[00:30:22] than...

[00:30:23] And who I'm helping and serving.

[00:30:25] And I know that sounds cliche. It's just true.

[00:30:27] I always say to people,

[00:30:29] I gave selfishness a good go about 10 or 15 years.

[00:30:34] I really worked hard.

[00:30:36] That was my model, was looking after me

[00:30:38] and I did it pretty well and I did it for quite a while.

[00:30:42] But ultimately I was mentally, emotionally

[00:30:44] and spiritually bankrupt.

[00:30:45] I had lots of stuff from the outside looking

[00:30:48] in my life was awesome.

[00:30:50] But the inside out experience was rubbish.

[00:30:54] Share with us about your spiritual journey.

[00:31:00] So I don't know if you and I have spoken about this,

[00:31:05] but I grew up in a very religious house,

[00:31:10] which was Catholic and more religious than spiritual.

[00:31:14] And then I ended up after I left school,

[00:31:17] I ended up in what is not common in Australia,

[00:31:22] but way more common in the States,

[00:31:23] which is a Pentecostal, evangelical,

[00:31:26] Rafter swinging, tambourine banging.

[00:31:29] If love and the Lord's wrong, I don't want to be right.

[00:31:31] What?

[00:31:32] Yeah, no snakes dude.

[00:31:33] No snakes.

[00:31:34] No bro, we did a hard pass on the snakes.

[00:31:40] But very, you know, and I was really curious

[00:31:43] and I loved this.

[00:31:45] I loved the idea of there being,

[00:31:50] I don't know something bigger or something.

[00:31:51] You know, I loved the idea of a God.

[00:31:57] And when I started to read the Bible

[00:32:02] because I was involved in this church

[00:32:04] and I read the Bible for like literally daily for five years.

[00:32:10] And so I became quite, you know, relatively theologically,

[00:32:14] I guess, aware.

[00:32:18] So between 19 and 24.

[00:32:20] And then I kept going to, I kept, you know,

[00:32:25] but for me there was,

[00:32:27] and this is probably not very uplifting for anyone.

[00:32:29] So I apologize, but I saw inconsistency between what was,

[00:32:34] what I was reading and what I was seeing in church,

[00:32:37] which is not to say I was the high water mark

[00:32:39] for, you know, the model Christian either.

[00:32:43] But I was pretty full on.

[00:32:45] I was pretty committed.

[00:32:46] Like I, from 19 to 24,

[00:32:49] I did not have sex.

[00:32:50] I was completely celibate.

[00:32:52] I didn't drink, I didn't smoke.

[00:32:53] I've never drunk in my life.

[00:32:54] I've never been drunk.

[00:32:55] I've never had drugs.

[00:32:56] I've never been high.

[00:32:58] I've never had a glass of alcohol.

[00:33:00] Right?

[00:33:00] So I'm quite disciplined.

[00:33:02] And once I figure out what's good for me,

[00:33:05] I will tend to do that.

[00:33:08] And it turns out that the church that I was in

[00:33:11] and I didn't really know,

[00:33:12] and I hope you listeners don't find this boring,

[00:33:15] but this is just my journey.

[00:33:16] It ended up being more of a cult than anything.

[00:33:19] It was very, very controlling and manipulative.

[00:33:22] And you know, so for that reason and a few others,

[00:33:26] I kind of exited,

[00:33:27] but I was in there boots and all for a rock solid five years.

[00:33:31] Then I went to another church after that,

[00:33:33] which was a little bit less controlling.

[00:33:35] And you know, but I still think a lot of,

[00:33:39] for me, a lot of the principles in the New Testament anyway,

[00:33:45] really, if the Bible is not the inspired Word of God,

[00:33:49] if the Bible is just a bunch of thoughts and ideas

[00:33:52] and messages and lessons written by disparate people

[00:33:56] over centuries, it's still not the worst thing to read.

[00:34:01] The Old Testament, as you probably know,

[00:34:04] I don't know where you are with all this,

[00:34:05] but it's pretty heavy going there, some good stuff.

[00:34:07] But the New Testament, you know,

[00:34:09] and so for me, I, there's lots of questions

[00:34:12] and unanswered questions around all of that.

[00:34:14] But what I do know is that if I can,

[00:34:18] if I can do my best, most of my life,

[00:34:22] most encounters with people, most interactions

[00:34:25] to come from a place of love.

[00:34:28] And yes, that sounds cliche,

[00:34:30] but to come from a place of love,

[00:34:31] whether that's kindness or generosity or quality time

[00:34:34] or you know, helping or supporting someone

[00:34:37] through a tricky process.

[00:34:39] Or I know that when I have a purpose bigger than me,

[00:34:42] yes, another cliche, but it's true for me.

[00:34:46] I'm a better human.

[00:34:47] And I know when I do my very best to operate

[00:34:50] from a place of kindness and love,

[00:34:52] I'm a better human because I'm an only child.

[00:34:56] I can be very self-centered and selfish,

[00:34:59] but I also have lots of data

[00:35:00] that suggests that that does not work.

[00:35:04] So, you know, it's like I, I love people.

[00:35:08] I genuinely love people.

[00:35:10] I love helping people explore their potential power possibilities.

[00:35:13] I love that.

[00:35:15] I love helping people open the door on their own kind of thing,

[00:35:21] you know, and if I can just support them or cheer them on.

[00:35:25] And I tell people constantly,

[00:35:27] I'm not the answer like I'm just a conduit to the answer.

[00:35:30] Right? The answer is you.

[00:35:32] I'm just a guy sharing thoughts and ideas and stories.

[00:35:34] I have changed zero lives except my own.

[00:35:38] The only life I've changed is me.

[00:35:40] I've influenced a few people, but I can't get out of bed for you.

[00:35:45] I can't make hard decisions for you.

[00:35:47] I can't have self-controlled discipline or awareness for you.

[00:35:50] I can't make the tricky decisions.

[00:35:52] I can't be resilient for you.

[00:35:53] I can't lean into the pain for you.

[00:35:55] I can't grow, learn for you.

[00:35:58] All I can do is go,

[00:35:59] you're fucking amazing, but you need to do the work.

[00:36:01] And I'm, you know, like I'm that,

[00:36:06] but I'm also not the guy who was interested in making people feel good

[00:36:12] for three minutes at the cost of not being real.

[00:36:16] So I'm okay with telling people something that I believe to be true

[00:36:21] that might be a little uncomfortable for them

[00:36:23] because I'm more interested in their long-term physical,

[00:36:26] mental, emotional and spiritual wealth than I am,

[00:36:30] stroking their ego and making them feel good for two minutes

[00:36:33] while not really saying what I think.

[00:36:36] Right.

[00:36:38] One of the pieces of this podcast coach is that we talk about hinge moments

[00:36:43] and I believe we have multiple hinge moments about our life

[00:36:46] that every door has a hinge

[00:36:48] and it's that one person, one moment,

[00:36:51] one decision that connects who we are with, who we become.

[00:36:56] What's a hinge moment that you can share with us

[00:36:58] that connected who you are with, with who you became?

[00:37:04] I have a few.

[00:37:06] So I had a huge moment when I was a morbidly obese kid.

[00:37:13] I was, I think we spoke about this when you were on my show,

[00:37:16] but so I don't want to bore you again,

[00:37:17] but your listeners don't know, I guess is,

[00:37:20] I was 200 pounds, about 90 kids,

[00:37:22] but actually more probably like 210, like 95 kilos

[00:37:26] when I was 14 years old, morbidly obese.

[00:37:30] My name was Jumbo at school, parents, teachers, kids called me that.

[00:37:35] And I remember just having this and I obviously didn't like how I looked

[00:37:39] or felt or I was embarrassed and it was nobody's fault.

[00:37:44] Like it wasn't my genetics, it was a bit of genetics,

[00:37:47] but it was really my behaviour, my choices.

[00:37:51] And anyway, I had the...

[00:37:56] I went to a private school and swimming at the swimming carnival

[00:38:01] every year was compulsory.

[00:38:03] In Australia, swimming sports are a big thing, right?

[00:38:06] And every year when it was my turn to swim in my event

[00:38:09] because everyone had to swim,

[00:38:11] I would always go and basically hide

[00:38:14] and the program needed to keep going.

[00:38:16] So my event would come and go

[00:38:18] and they would just do the race without me

[00:38:21] because I would go to the toilet or the change room somewhere.

[00:38:24] And anyway, in year eight, my sports teacher knew what I was up to

[00:38:28] and he basically manhandled me over to the starting blocks.

[00:38:34] And I just remember standing on that starting block

[00:38:37] before that race, I used the term race loosely.

[00:38:42] And feeling like I had one million people looking at me

[00:38:48] and I'm up there in my...

[00:38:50] What I think Americans call swimsuit, we call bathers in Australia.

[00:38:56] And I felt so vulnerable, so seen, so uncomfortable,

[00:39:03] so humiliated because I was up there

[00:39:05] for literally hundreds and hundreds of people to see

[00:39:08] this morbidly obese body that I was living in.

[00:39:12] And that was the moment where I swam the race,

[00:39:16] I got out of the water at the other end, it's just 50 metres

[00:39:19] and I went, I'm never ever...

[00:39:21] I don't know if I said this but I essentially said fuck that.

[00:39:25] I'm never gonna do that again.

[00:39:27] That's it. I'm never gonna feel that again.

[00:39:29] I'm never gonna allow myself to be in that situation again.

[00:39:33] That's it.

[00:39:35] And so for me, it wasn't a light bulb

[00:39:38] but was fucking all the light bulbs.

[00:39:40] It wasn't a hinge, it was a million hinges.

[00:39:42] It was like an epiphany.

[00:39:46] And in the subsequent four months, I lost 35 kilos

[00:39:50] which is the best part of what's exactly 77 pounds.

[00:39:55] Three or four months, maybe five.

[00:39:58] But I lost a lot of weight.

[00:40:00] I essentially halved what I was eating

[00:40:02] and I just started training.

[00:40:03] I didn't know what I was doing.

[00:40:04] I was 14-year-old, fuck it, I had no idea.

[00:40:07] But I just started moving.

[00:40:08] I started running.

[00:40:09] Clearly I couldn't run at the start.

[00:40:11] So I would walk, jog a bit, walk, jog a bit.

[00:40:13] That ended up being jogging, walk, jog, walk and then more jog.

[00:40:17] And then I just changed the ratios until the fitness went up

[00:40:20] and the weight came off.

[00:40:21] Then I became quite fit

[00:40:25] and then if I'm being on a somewhat obsessed with training

[00:40:28] and appearance and all of that shit.

[00:40:30] So that's another story.

[00:40:31] But what was fascinating for me was that, yes,

[00:40:37] I lost a lot of weight and gained a lot of fitness

[00:40:39] in a relatively short time.

[00:40:42] And that physiological shift was good.

[00:40:43] But what it really did for me, Rob,

[00:40:45] was it opened like a door in my brain

[00:40:47] where I realised that despite the fact

[00:40:49] that I didn't have great genetics,

[00:40:51] I wasn't a great athlete.

[00:40:52] I wasn't the smartest kid in school.

[00:40:54] I wasn't inherently or innately gifted.

[00:40:59] If I would make decisions and do work,

[00:41:01] I could create amazing outcomes.

[00:41:03] Well, for me personally, amazing outcomes.

[00:41:06] And so that was almost the genesis for me

[00:41:09] starting to think about human potential.

[00:41:12] What is possible?

[00:41:13] What is possible if, you know,

[00:41:15] I can't wake up tomorrow with more talent.

[00:41:17] I can't wake up tomorrow with better genetics.

[00:41:19] I can't wake up tomorrow with 26 hours in a day.

[00:41:23] But what if tomorrow I use what I've got more efficiently

[00:41:27] and more optimally?

[00:41:28] What could I do?

[00:41:29] And that's kind of underlined, you know,

[00:41:31] the next 40 years really.

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[00:41:56] Yeah, I love that one, man.

[00:42:00] You know, on that journey,

[00:42:01] I mean, you make the body transformation.

[00:42:06] When did, because usually,

[00:42:09] I mean, you would go from being an insecure,

[00:42:12] self-conscious fat kid to now being insecure,

[00:42:16] self-conscious, more in shape, right?

[00:42:21] When did that transformation take place?

[00:42:25] I mean, because I know that was gradual as well,

[00:42:26] but when did that one take place?

[00:42:29] Yeah, so I was like many people, maybe,

[00:42:33] I was trying to resolve,

[00:42:35] I mean, first of all, I did need to change my body.

[00:42:37] So there were real physiological issues

[00:42:39] that needed to be addressed.

[00:42:42] But then eventually,

[00:42:44] I was trying to find myself in...

[00:42:46] I thought my body was me.

[00:42:49] I couldn't really differentiate

[00:42:51] between how I looked and who I was.

[00:42:54] Mm-hmm.

[00:42:55] And when you get your sense of self-worth

[00:42:59] and identity from your appearance,

[00:43:01] that's a dangerous place to be.

[00:43:04] Because then you become narcissistic,

[00:43:06] then you become obsessed,

[00:43:08] then you make irrational decisions,

[00:43:10] and then also you're delusional.

[00:43:12] And for me, I was trying to resolve

[00:43:14] emotional and psychological issues

[00:43:16] with fucking bigger arms.

[00:43:18] You know?

[00:43:19] I thought, wow, if I can weigh 100Ks

[00:43:22] and be under 10% body fat,

[00:43:24] that's 220% body fat,

[00:43:28] you know, I'm gonna be great.

[00:43:29] I'm gonna be happy.

[00:43:30] I'm gonna be like a ridiculous...

[00:43:32] Yeah, of course.

[00:43:33] It's like, and girls will think I'm awesome

[00:43:35] and guys will think I'm terrifying

[00:43:36] and bibbidi-bobbidi-boo.

[00:43:38] You know, I know it's ridiculous,

[00:43:40] but when there's an inverse correlation

[00:43:45] between your arm size and your IQ

[00:43:47] and your emotional intelligence,

[00:43:50] you think dumb things.

[00:43:52] And I was always...

[00:43:53] because I was wildly insecure,

[00:43:56] I was always looking for people's approval

[00:43:59] and I was always trying to get

[00:44:00] And I'm only slightly better now,

[00:44:02] so please love me.

[00:44:04] But you know, I was always...

[00:44:07] Thank you.

[00:44:08] I was always trying to get

[00:44:14] validation and approval and acceptance

[00:44:16] and belonging through...

[00:44:18] for a period of my life anyway

[00:44:19] through how I looked,

[00:44:21] through how I looked

[00:44:22] and what people thought of how I looked.

[00:44:26] And obviously that's...

[00:44:29] You know, I think...

[00:44:29] I actually think it's worse today than ever.

[00:44:32] I think that I am my body phenomena

[00:44:35] is phenomenon

[00:44:37] is more rampant than ever.

[00:44:41] You know, love me because of my body.

[00:44:43] It's just...

[00:44:45] And I understand,

[00:44:46] I'm not being critical of those people

[00:44:48] because that was exactly me for a long time.

[00:44:51] And even now at the ripe old age of 60,

[00:44:53] I need to be careful.

[00:44:55] I need to be careful that I don't let

[00:44:57] my own bullshit get in the way

[00:44:59] because it's...

[00:45:00] I've still got an ego,

[00:45:02] I'm still battling some of the same things.

[00:45:06] You know, I think I've grown and evolved,

[00:45:08] but am I there?

[00:45:09] No, I'm not there.

[00:45:11] I'm never going to be there.

[00:45:16] Coach, one of the questions I'm always fascinated about

[00:45:18] I like asking experts this one

[00:45:20] because they've been there,

[00:45:21] but the mountaintop moments,

[00:45:24] so whichever mountain that somebody's climbing,

[00:45:27] whether it's for the Olympics

[00:45:29] and they win the gold medal.

[00:45:32] And really just on the heels of the Olympics as well.

[00:45:35] Like people have flown back with that

[00:45:36] mountaintop moment of having a medal

[00:45:39] and they've flown back to where they are

[00:45:41] and I'm never saying that losing is better than winning.

[00:45:45] I'm not saying that.

[00:45:45] However, there were people that flown back

[00:45:49] and think now, okay, now what?

[00:45:55] Or what's next?

[00:45:57] Because everything was devoted to that

[00:45:59] and that was going to solve everything, right?

[00:46:02] I mean, that was going to make me complete

[00:46:03] and that was the fallacy heading into it

[00:46:05] is that there is no finish line to it.

[00:46:07] Your mountaintop moments that you've had,

[00:46:11] how did you reconcile and make peace with that

[00:46:15] and just have that be part of the journey

[00:46:18] and not have that be the end all?

[00:46:22] And the reason why I prefaced it like that

[00:46:25] is because nothing lives on top of those mountains.

[00:46:28] Like the most majestic mountains,

[00:46:30] the higher the mountain,

[00:46:31] you've got to come back down off that sucker, right?

[00:46:33] At some point, you've got to come back down.

[00:46:36] I mean, the people are on top of Mount Everest

[00:46:38] for a matter of minutes before they come back down,

[00:46:40] but they've taken so much time climbing it.

[00:46:42] Talk to us about that, some of your hinge moments

[00:46:45] and how you've navigated those type of experiences.

[00:46:49] So I think this is all about expectation.

[00:46:52] There's a relationship between expectation,

[00:46:55] what we expect and then our subsequent frustration,

[00:46:59] disappointment and anger.

[00:47:01] Like for example, you know, how...

[00:47:06] This is a practical real world interpersonal example.

[00:47:09] If there's a person in your life who always treats you

[00:47:12] like a relative or a boss or a colleague

[00:47:14] or someone who often treats you

[00:47:16] the way that you don't want to be treated

[00:47:18] or they're just whatever.

[00:47:21] And they've done that 100 times to you.

[00:47:24] And then next time you encounter them,

[00:47:26] you somehow expect them to be different.

[00:47:29] You're going to be disappointed.

[00:47:31] You're going to be frustrated.

[00:47:32] You're going to be angry.

[00:47:32] You're going to be a mix of those things.

[00:47:36] Now I'm not saying how they're treating you is okay,

[00:47:38] but I'm saying the best predictor of future behavior

[00:47:40] is past behavior.

[00:47:41] So for example, I love my dad.

[00:47:43] My dad's a great man,

[00:47:44] but my dad has got the emotional development

[00:47:47] of this drink bottle here that I'm holding up to show you,

[00:47:51] which you can't see.

[00:47:53] My dad's a great man,

[00:47:54] but my dad's never said to me once in my life,

[00:47:57] I love you.

[00:47:57] I'm proud of you.

[00:47:58] You're amazing.

[00:47:59] Right?

[00:48:00] Does he love me?

[00:48:01] Yes, he does.

[00:48:01] Does he use those words?

[00:48:02] No, he doesn't.

[00:48:03] Right?

[00:48:04] And so if I expect my dad every time I see him,

[00:48:07] which is once a week,

[00:48:08] he lives in the country,

[00:48:08] I drive up the seam.

[00:48:10] If I expect him to welcome me with open arms,

[00:48:12] give me a hug and tell me I'm awesome

[00:48:14] and how much he loves me.

[00:48:16] I'm going to be fucking shattered every Saturday.

[00:48:19] Right?

[00:48:20] And so I think there's a,

[00:48:21] there's this correlation between what we expect

[00:48:24] and then our subsequent emotional state

[00:48:26] and psychological state around that.

[00:48:29] So if I think that I'm going to go to the Olympics

[00:48:31] and win a gold medal

[00:48:32] and that is going to fix me and fix my life,

[00:48:35] whatever that means,

[00:48:36] I'm going to be disappointed.

[00:48:37] But as you said,

[00:48:39] winning a gold medal is an amazing achievement.

[00:48:42] But you and I all know,

[00:48:44] you and I know people who are what we would call

[00:48:47] from the outside looking in very successful

[00:48:50] in that they've won something or done something

[00:48:53] or they own something

[00:48:54] or they built a brand or business

[00:48:56] or in a, in terms of what the world would call success,

[00:49:02] they are successful.

[00:49:05] But at the same time,

[00:49:07] some of those people with all the accolades

[00:49:09] all the prestige, all the dough, all the trappings

[00:49:13] are also, you know,

[00:49:15] medicated for anxiety and depression

[00:49:16] and sleeplessness and so on.

[00:49:19] And so I think it's keeping an in perspective

[00:49:21] at saying what you've done is amazing.

[00:49:24] And you are a great athlete,

[00:49:25] but being a great athlete doesn't make you a great human.

[00:49:28] Let's try and be both.

[00:49:30] You're not one or the other.

[00:49:32] You know, well, if you are one thing,

[00:49:33] you're a human who does this stuff.

[00:49:35] And I think when we get our sense of identity

[00:49:38] and self-worth through anything,

[00:49:40] like I spoke about, I got it through my body.

[00:49:43] But if you get your sense of identity

[00:49:45] and self-worth through say your,

[00:49:47] your academic credibility or, you know,

[00:49:50] it's like a thing that I discovered doing my PhD is

[00:49:54] the, the regard in which, you know,

[00:49:57] publications held,

[00:49:58] oh, I've published 342 times

[00:50:01] and I'm like, oh, okay.

[00:50:03] I couldn't give a shit, but okay.

[00:50:05] You know, all that kind of stuff that we,

[00:50:08] that we value and that we kind of think makes us better.

[00:50:13] And I think that like I said to you earlier,

[00:50:17] or I alluded to anyway,

[00:50:19] I got to a point in my life when I was 33 or four Rob,

[00:50:22] I had four gyms.

[00:50:24] I had two other businesses on that stage three gyms,

[00:50:27] two other businesses.

[00:50:28] I had five bricks and mortar businesses.

[00:50:30] I had over a hundred staff,

[00:50:32] had a really nice home.

[00:50:34] I had a really nice beach home or holiday home.

[00:50:36] I had lots of toys, lots of stuff on every practical indicator.

[00:50:42] I was ticking the box.

[00:50:43] I was successful and I was fucking miserable.

[00:50:47] And I'm not saying one caused the other,

[00:50:49] but I was so externally focused.

[00:50:52] I was so all about what everyone could see.

[00:50:56] You know, initially it was my body

[00:50:59] and then it was my business.

[00:51:00] Then it was my money and then it was my cars.

[00:51:03] And then it was my, and I wasn't trying to be,

[00:51:07] that's just what I thought success was.

[00:51:09] And I got to the point.

[00:51:11] I went, how come I've got all this shit, but I'm miserable?

[00:51:13] How come I have the,

[00:51:16] what seems to be the appearance of success,

[00:51:19] but not the experience of success?

[00:51:20] What's that gap about?

[00:51:22] Yeah.

[00:51:27] The appearance of success, not the experience of success.

[00:51:32] Yeah.

[00:51:33] I think, you know, one is,

[00:51:35] and I've also know a lot of one of my best friends is,

[00:51:39] she's a nurse and she's one of the nicest people in the world.

[00:51:43] And she's what's called an end of life doula.

[00:51:46] She sits with people while they're dying

[00:51:49] and she helps them transition.

[00:51:53] And she drives a 15 year old car worth three grand

[00:51:57] and she lives in a one bedroom apartment

[00:51:59] and she is infinitely happier than nearly everyone I know.

[00:52:05] And I'm not just saying that because that fits with the moment,

[00:52:09] but right, it's fucking, it's fucking, she's, she's rich.

[00:52:14] She's rich, you know, and,

[00:52:16] and that's not to say, A always equals B.

[00:52:21] And it's not to say that if you're driving a Porsche

[00:52:24] or Ferrari and living in a mansion looking at the ocean,

[00:52:26] that you automatically going to be miserable, of course, of course not.

[00:52:30] But I think it's just, you know, I think I always talk about these

[00:52:35] when I'm doing a like more than a keynote,

[00:52:37] when I'm doing a workshop,

[00:52:38] I eventually end up talking about the duality of the human experiences

[00:52:42] that were in the world, not of the world,

[00:52:44] which is a little bit of a biblical construct,

[00:52:46] but that we operate, you know,

[00:52:48] in a physical three dimensional space, you know, seen,

[00:52:51] and then also a non physical unseen space.

[00:52:55] And it's almost like where life happens is out here in the world,

[00:53:00] situation, circumstance, environment, government,

[00:53:03] whether traffic lights, bank job, other humans, you know, fuckwits.

[00:53:09] And, but where living happens is in that internal space.

[00:53:14] It's like this is where my living happens in my mind,

[00:53:17] in my emotions, in my heart.

[00:53:18] This is where living happens and kind of to an extent

[00:53:22] life happens around me.

[00:53:24] And then it's the relationship between that, you know,

[00:53:27] how I process what is going on around me,

[00:53:30] the meaning that I give things, the stories that I tell myself,

[00:53:33] the way that I respond to all those external stimuli.

[00:53:40] We're cooking now, man. We're going.

[00:53:43] Come on, bro. Come on. Let's see where we go.

[00:53:47] What question should I be asking that that I just haven't asked?

[00:53:55] Look, I think.

[00:53:57] I think the like an interesting discussion point is around success.

[00:54:05] And like everyone wants to be successful and so many people get

[00:54:09] in inverted commas what we were just talking about successful.

[00:54:13] But they don't feel it. There's no experience of it.

[00:54:15] And I think not just with that, but I think the idea that there

[00:54:21] is a generic anything that's going to be universally relevant

[00:54:29] or appropriate for everyone.

[00:54:30] It's like you and I might go to the gym.

[00:54:33] Let's say you and I did the same workout.

[00:54:35] Let's say we ate the same diet diet.

[00:54:37] Let's say we went to bed at the same time.

[00:54:39] We had the same amount of sleep. We drink the same amount.

[00:54:42] You and I do everything identically for 100 days.

[00:54:45] You and I don't look the same at the end.

[00:54:46] We don't feel the same.

[00:54:47] We don't recover the same.

[00:54:48] You know, you might it might work for you.

[00:54:51] It doesn't work for me or vice versa.

[00:54:53] And so I think in the middle of this, you know, never ending

[00:54:58] human journey where at least when I talk to people and I say,

[00:55:02] would you like to do better?

[00:55:03] Think better, produce better?

[00:55:05] Most people say, yeah, I would.

[00:55:08] And then you say, well, what does that mean?

[00:55:10] When you say better, what does that mean for you?

[00:55:13] When you say you want to be successful,

[00:55:15] what does that mean for you?

[00:55:16] You know, and then how much do you want that thing?

[00:55:20] Like, do you...

[00:55:21] There's a difference between wanting to be jacked,

[00:55:24] fit, lean, strong, healthy, functional,

[00:55:26] and being willing to do the work to create that.

[00:55:29] Because one's just a theory.

[00:55:31] One's just an idea.

[00:55:32] One's a process.

[00:55:33] Everyone loves the idea and the theory.

[00:55:35] Everyone wants to be at the top of the mountain.

[00:55:37] No one wants to climb the fucking mountain.

[00:55:40] So it's in the middle of this too,

[00:55:42] it's like trying to figure out what will work for Rob.

[00:55:47] What is success for Rob?

[00:55:49] What gives Rob joy, peace, excitement, curiosity?

[00:55:54] Where does Rob learn and grow?

[00:55:55] Where does Craig learn and grow?

[00:55:57] Like I'm a single dude who eats two meals a day

[00:56:02] who some people would call me the most boring fucker in Australia

[00:56:05] and I wouldn't blame them.

[00:56:07] But I love my life.

[00:56:09] I enjoy where I'm at.

[00:56:10] I have amazing friends.

[00:56:11] I do amazing things.

[00:56:13] I have lots of awesome experiences.

[00:56:16] I don't think that being me or a version of me

[00:56:19] is the high watermark.

[00:56:20] I don't think that, I think like for some people,

[00:56:23] being in a relationship is awesome and the best.

[00:56:27] I also think that some people who are alone

[00:56:30] are not necessarily lonely.

[00:56:32] I think some people who are in the middle of a crowd are lonely.

[00:56:35] Some people that I've worked with

[00:56:40] and some people that a lot of people listening in Australia

[00:56:43] would know high profile people.

[00:56:45] They are some of the most disconnected, isolated, lonely people

[00:56:49] that I've ever met.

[00:56:50] Yet nobody would think that because they're famous,

[00:56:53] because they're rich, because they're popular.

[00:56:56] And then the middle of their fame, their popularity

[00:56:58] and their money, they're so fucking lonely and disconnected.

[00:57:03] So yeah, I think trying to figure out

[00:57:05] what it is that's going to work for you,

[00:57:07] not what's going to work for Rob.

[00:57:09] Don't use Rob's model because you're not Rob.

[00:57:11] Don't use Craig's model.

[00:57:13] It won't work because you're not me or him.

[00:57:17] So just that, I think listening to podcasts like this

[00:57:20] where you get ideas and you get triggers

[00:57:22] and you get stimulus and you get a bit of amusement

[00:57:25] and entertainment, then you take that away

[00:57:28] and then you go, okay, what's relevant for me

[00:57:31] and what might I try?

[00:57:32] What might I take for a test drive

[00:57:34] to see what the result is for me?

[00:57:38] You know, like my body tells me that two meals a day

[00:57:41] work for me.

[00:57:43] Part of me would like to eat five meals a day

[00:57:45] because I fucking love food.

[00:57:47] But it doesn't work for my body and my body's smarter than me.

[00:57:51] My body's a biofeedback system

[00:57:53] that's always telling me what I need.

[00:57:56] And so for, you know, probably until I was,

[00:58:00] definitely until I was the four-year-old fat kid

[00:58:02] and then for a while beyond, I was disconnected from my body.

[00:58:06] I didn't really pay attention.

[00:58:09] But probably only the last 40 years

[00:58:11] where me and my body really like each other.

[00:58:15] Did you come here to die?

[00:58:19] What do you mean?

[00:58:21] No, I came here yesterday.

[00:58:24] Oh, okay.

[00:58:25] What is you?

[00:58:27] That was the humor.

[00:58:30] I love you, right?

[00:58:30] But Americans cannot do Australian accents.

[00:58:33] That's why I was hoping you'd do it.

[00:58:35] Yeah, Australians don't say to die.

[00:58:38] They say today.

[00:58:40] But when a lot of...

[00:58:43] This is what Americans do.

[00:58:45] The Brit said, did you come here to die?

[00:58:50] Fucking...

[00:58:50] And Aussie says, oh, I came here yesterday.

[00:58:55] Go ahead.

[00:58:56] Go ahead.

[00:58:57] No, pile on the Americans.

[00:58:59] When Americans take off Aussies,

[00:59:02] they usually do like a cockney British.

[00:59:04] They say, hello, Governor, what's your game?

[00:59:07] You know, it's like...

[00:59:09] Hello, Giza, what's your game?

[00:59:11] You know, we don't...

[00:59:12] No, we're not cockney British people.

[00:59:15] It is a very hard accent.

[00:59:19] But the Brit's in the joke.

[00:59:22] That's what makes it funny.

[00:59:23] Yes, that is funny.

[00:59:26] Coach, man, I appreciate you taking the time.

[00:59:28] I know you do a lot of these podcasts.

[00:59:31] And thank you for sharing your wisdom,

[00:59:32] experience, strength and hope here, man.

[00:59:34] And we're going to put the links on there.

[00:59:36] They'll come out soon, brother.

[00:59:38] But thank you so much, man.

[00:59:39] We definitely got better.

[00:59:41] I appreciate you.

[00:59:42] You're great at that.

[00:59:43] And thank you for the opportunity.

[00:59:45] Cheers.

[00:59:48] Boom.

[01:00:03] Thanks for listening to Mental Toughness with Dr. Rob Bell.

[01:00:07] To find out more about Dr. Rob,

[01:00:10] visit his website at drrobbell.com

[01:00:12] or follow him on Twitter at Dr. Rob Bell.

[01:00:16] And subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast platform

[01:00:19] to get the next episode of Mental Toughness

[01:00:21] as soon as it's available.

[01:00:23] Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.