Ep. 141 - Trail Runner Nation - Even Slow Runners Arrive

[00:00:09] Welcome to Mental Toughness with Dr. Rob Bell. Each week, Dr. Rob sits down with athletes,

[00:00:15] executives and expert coaches to talk about mental toughness and their hinge moment. Here's your host,

[00:00:22] Dr. Rob. And so I think that just that paradigm shift in psychology of how do I make it through it

[00:00:45] versus how can I become friends with it? How can I make it enjoyable? I think that is one way

[00:00:51] how an elite athlete thinks differently. But I think that the key connection in there is

[00:00:58] we don't have to be elite to think the same way.

[00:01:01] Dr. Rob Bell So welcome to episode 141 of the Mental Toughness Podcast. If you're looking for

[00:01:11] other running endurance episodes, three come to mind. Episode 101 with Lewis Rogling,

[00:01:17] episode 100 with Danita Waters, her riding across the United States and episode 97 with

[00:01:22] Andrew Glaze, who I'm sure everyone around Strava knows. But today's guest I'm excited about.

[00:01:29] See, I think they are what the Sklar Brothers are a comedy. I mean, they are the goals

[00:01:36] of Trailrunner Nation. One of Trailrunners oldest and most downloaded podcasts. It's devoted to

[00:01:43] sharing knowledge and advice with the trail running community from beginners to pros.

[00:01:47] You're going to love these guys or hate them. Some of them, you all are just going to think

[00:01:52] they're okay. Don Freeman, Scott Lohr. Don and Scott, man, glad to have you guys on here.

[00:01:58] Look forward to it. How are you?

[00:02:00] Dr. Lohr Good. Is the hate mail going to us or is it going to you?

[00:02:03] Dr. Rob Bell Coney you, buddy.

[00:02:04] Dr. Rob Bell And this is a payback. We owe you. You've been on our podcast several times

[00:02:10] and shared your knowledge and wisdom in the books that you've written and your running

[00:02:14] experiences because you're an ultra running yourself. And we appreciate for that. So here

[00:02:18] we are. We're all yours. You can beat us up, throw us under our buses. You can even delete

[00:02:23] this episode after you record it where everything you want right here.

[00:02:26] Dr. Lohr Well, we all have mics though. So no one's really in charge, you know?

[00:02:34] But being on the other side of the mic, let's just, we'll set the stage real quick. Just

[00:02:38] tell us where are you guys currently with, again, we don't want to time stamp this, right?

[00:02:44] I'm just going to be coming out. But where are you guys right now with running personally?

[00:02:50] Dr. Rob Bell

[00:02:52] Our personal running? You know, over for years, for years, I did not identify myself as a runner

[00:03:03] even though I was running. And I finally, and probably the last three or four years have

[00:03:09] overcome that. I identify myself as a runner. And because of that, I go out and run. And because

[00:03:16] I run, that reinforces my identity. So for the longest time, I thought, you know, I'm not

[00:03:21] built like a runner. You look at people that are finishing in the top 100 at Boston and stuff

[00:03:26] like that. You don't see my body type doing that. And so that's the reason why I was a

[00:03:31] little reluctant to identify myself as a runner. But I think that's where I am with my running

[00:03:36] is I finally identified myself as a runner and I feel good about that.

[00:03:39] Dr. Rob Bell

[00:03:40] Look, I mean, you have the beard though.

[00:03:42] Dr. Rob Bell

[00:03:42] I have the ultra beard, yeah.

[00:03:44] Dr. Rob Bell

[00:03:47] Yeah, and for me, as a runner, heck, you know, how long have I been running? 25 years or so

[00:03:53] that I've been running trail and started off on a road marathon. And a friend mentioned

[00:03:58] you could get a jacket if you ran on and finished a 50 mile run. And Lord knows I didn't need a

[00:04:04] jacket. I had a closet full of them, but the fact that you could get one from getting out on a

[00:04:08] trail and completing it. And at the end of 26.2 miles of a marathon, I could barely make it

[00:04:14] over the curb to step over to get to the car and to think that I would go twice that far

[00:04:19] intrigued me. So off I went, ended up running that 100 and then the 200 mile series with

[00:04:25] Candice and looking back from a few years doing that, I'm with Scott. I'm running because I enjoy it.

[00:04:32] I'm out there to stay healthy and don't have any races planned, but couldn't imagine not having it

[00:04:38] as part of my weekly or monthly type of process.

[00:04:43] Dr. Rob Bell

[00:04:44] Don, do you still have the jacket?

[00:04:45] Dr. Rob Bell

[00:04:46] That jacket? You bet I do. And I'm not sure where it's going to go after I pass away,

[00:04:50] but it's got to go somewhere. I worked hard for that thing.

[00:04:53] Dr. Rob Bell

[00:04:54] Maybe your most valuable piece of personal item that you're going to hand down to your children.

[00:05:02] Dr. Rob Bell

[00:05:03] Absolutely.

[00:05:04] Dr. Rob Bell

[00:05:04] So which jacket is this?

[00:05:05] Dr. Rob Bell

[00:05:06] Oh, it's an AR50 Finisher jacket. American River 50. You get a jacket for completing it. And

[00:05:12] it's a well kept secret. What is the jacket going to look like? And we all talked about it

[00:05:16] for 50 miles because it was kept under wraps and you knew you were going to get one, but

[00:05:21] you didn't know what that years looked like. And so it became a trophy in a sense for all finishers.

[00:05:27] You could wear it to different events and you could put it on or you could just hang it in your

[00:05:31] closet and never wear it. It didn't matter, but it held a special spot in the closet and in

[00:05:35] your heart. So that was the 50-miler jacket that was tradition at the American River 50.

[00:05:42] Dr. Rob Bell

[00:05:43] What year was this, Don?

[00:05:44] Dr. Rob Bell

[00:05:44] For me, it was 2003. It was my first finish.

[00:05:49] Let's do a little stream of consciousness thinking on this, right?

[00:05:52] So when you think back to that race, what is one thing that stands out about that experience for you?

[00:05:58] Dr. Rob Bell

[00:05:59] I'll answer that.

[00:06:00] Dr. Rob Bell

[00:06:00] Boy, how am I going to answer that?

[00:06:04] I wasn't there.

[00:06:05] Dr. Rob Bell

[00:06:05] If anybody's listening to our podcast, Scott speaks a lot for me. And he gets out in front

[00:06:10] and answers a lot of the questions. And here's what Don was thinking. And I don't, so that's

[00:06:15] why I had to interject with all of that. And that was perceived effort. And he knows the story

[00:06:21] behind that. That's all I have to say, perceived effort. So I'm running along and running with Jeff

[00:06:26] Abel, one of our dear friends that helped introduce us. And I said, Jeff, things are going well.

[00:06:31] We've trained together. This really feels good. I'm at mile five. And I said, this feels

[00:06:36] fantastic. You know, we could cruise this thing right to the end, right to the finish.

[00:06:40] I can see it happening. And he said, Don, I think my heart rate's a little bit high.

[00:06:45] I'm sure yours is. I've been training with you. This is faster than we normally run,

[00:06:50] even on our training runs. And I said, don't worry about it, Jeff. It's perceived effort.

[00:06:56] Mile 19, my quads were locked up shuffling along the trail. I learned about perceived

[00:07:03] effort, not starting too fast. All the lessons that trail runners learn, well,

[00:07:07] it was handed to me in a single race, learning about electrolytes, learning about pace,

[00:07:12] learning about effort, learning about expectations and negative chatter and lying on the ground

[00:07:17] face up thinking, how am I going to finish this thing with a white shirt full of salt?

[00:07:24] That's what that jacket represents to me. A lot of those early lessons all into one garment.

[00:07:30] Right. So Scott, like obviously as Don alluded, right, we get the test first and then we get

[00:07:36] the lesson afterwards. Can you speak to what's one experience and not necessarily

[00:07:43] what's one experience that comes to your mind from one of your races that really like stands out to

[00:07:48] you? Well, first of all, I think that you don't learn a heck of a lot when you're successful.

[00:07:56] There may be little bits and pieces, but I think that where you really make great strides in performance,

[00:08:02] great, great strides in knowledge and in wisdom is when you fail. And I can remember a race

[00:08:12] it was called at the time and they actually just brought it back, I think. It's called the

[00:08:16] Rucka Chuck, the Rucka Chuck 50K. And it was this race that starts, it kind of follows the western

[00:08:26] states 100 trail if people are familiar with that 100 mile race through the Sierra Nevada Mountains.

[00:08:33] And this is a 50K or 50K part of that where you go down kind of a rolling hills down to a

[00:08:41] river and then you turn around and you go back up. So halfway down, halfway back up.

[00:08:45] And I had already, huh? I'm straight. I've ran that. Yeah. So I had run multiple 50Ks prior to this

[00:08:55] and I was feeling a little cocky. I was thinking I got this in the bag. I know what I'm doing.

[00:09:01] I am a professional, not professional, I am an ultra runner. I got this one in the bag.

[00:09:07] I trained well for it. Well, I was doing great. I got down to the river faster than I thought

[00:09:14] I would. And I started on the way back up and that's when everything started falling apart.

[00:09:19] And there was one aid station along that path that was inaccessible to aid station workers.

[00:09:27] And so what they did was they packed in a whole bunch of gallon water bottles.

[00:09:34] And so they're just at this one aid station, just a whole bunch of gallon folds of water

[00:09:38] bottles. And so you're supposed to fill your water bottle there. Well, I had a really rough

[00:09:43] time getting to that. It was like the, I don't know, probably seven or eight miles left to the finish.

[00:09:50] And I had slowed down considerably. Lots of cramps. Don't know the reason why. And I got

[00:09:56] to that aid station and there was no water. And it was a hot day. And I just thought

[00:10:02] I'm done. This is it. I sat down, had a little pity party for myself

[00:10:07] and thought, well, they're going to have to come get me because I can't make it out without

[00:10:10] water. There's no way I can make it out without water. I'm already cramping. I need water to finish

[00:10:18] this. And a few people came by and, you know, asked how I was doing. Then I told them I was pretty much

[00:10:24] done. And then I started thinking, how are they going to get somebody in here to pick me up?

[00:10:30] It's going to be like midnight before they bring somebody in here. And I'm going to be

[00:10:35] freezing cold because the sun's going to go down. Anyway, long story short as I got up

[00:10:39] and I finished. But I was, I finished second to last, second to last. And that was a big

[00:10:48] learning lesson for me was never take a race for granted. Never think that you've got it.

[00:10:57] Be humble as you start. Be humble throughout the race. Perceived effort like Don says. If you

[00:11:04] think that you're feeling good, maybe slow down a little bit. He's always taught me that

[00:11:08] that if you at the first half of the race, if you think I would like to be going at this speed

[00:11:13] at the end of the race, then you're going about the same. The right pace. If you're going too fast,

[00:11:19] you're going, there's no way I can finish at this pace. You're probably going too fast. So

[00:11:24] that was my big lesson. It was a failure. But I learned something about myself and about how

[00:11:30] I strategically planned a race. Hey, good looking. If you like this podcast and are already a bad ass,

[00:11:42] but it's all way too complicated, then visit our website, DrRobBell.com and schedule a call

[00:11:49] with us to help capture your very own hinge moment. Yeah, no, I love that story because

[00:12:02] again, I pay somebody from Forest Hills down Ruckchuck in the back. Well, I didn't get that.

[00:12:06] But I remember thinking, I was like, I always want to know what would it be like to feel like

[00:12:12] you're starting a race at mile 60 and people are like, you know, they were, I ran 60 miles.

[00:12:19] And so I felt that and that was a good feeling. You know what I mean? It was like, dude, come on,

[00:12:23] let's go. You know what I mean? I was pacing him and he was on track. He wanted to

[00:12:28] break 24 hours and he was on track, but he was getting close and I kind of knew where

[00:12:33] it was, but I wasn't going to let him fail on my watch. You know what I mean? We're going to keep

[00:12:39] up this pace when he gets down there and crosses the river, then he throws up on the other side

[00:12:44] of it like, Hey man, I did my job. But the coolest part about that for me, that section was,

[00:12:53] again, it was a dark, but you could hear the river the whole time and that raging

[00:12:57] river that was down below you. That was such a cool feeling. Yeah. It's a great section

[00:13:03] of the Western States trail. Into your actual podcast. So I mean, you guys have had over

[00:13:12] what 670 episodes now when this comes out. Talk to us about the why behind your podcast.

[00:13:28] Scott, I can't see. I'll start it off. Heck, I was, I discovered podcasts back then. I'm not

[00:13:34] saying that I discovered it and Scott didn't know about it. That's not my point. I was listening to

[00:13:39] a running podcast and heard the guy driving down the road with his lifted four wheel drive truck,

[00:13:46] windowed down wheels rolling with some mud tires talking about his run that day as he was headed

[00:13:51] to his son soccer game. And I thought to myself, you know, that's a great idea. We could do a

[00:13:58] podcast and we could, you know, bring on the experts that we run with the guys and gals that are around

[00:14:06] the Western States trail that has so many great runners out there legendary. We get a chance to

[00:14:12] talk to them, ask them questions, get feedback from them. What about the guy that's in the middle

[00:14:17] of Kansas that doesn't have that culture and that environment? What if we could plug into

[00:14:22] their ears, these experts that we talked to, what if we could ask the same questions that

[00:14:28] we're asking and get the answers from those folks and put it out there for everybody to learn and gain?

[00:14:34] That was our why. That's what started this up. And I mentioned to Scott, you know,

[00:14:40] we could do that. And he says, yeah, I've got an MP3 recorder, handheld one. I said, Scott,

[00:14:45] I think we got to raise a bar a little bit because we want this to be quality. And so that's how

[00:14:50] I saw it started in part of our rationale. But I know that Scott, after listening to me,

[00:14:56] has more to add and something good. And I'm interested to hear the story.

[00:15:01] No, I think that was 80 percent correct and probably 70 percent historically factual.

[00:15:10] I will say that shortly after we started, we were very fortunate to read a book by Simon Sinek

[00:15:17] that probably many of your listeners have listened to. If they haven't, you've got to get it

[00:15:22] as a reference book. Even if you listen to the audio version, you need to get

[00:15:26] a hard copy so that you can use it as a reference. It's that good of a book.

[00:15:30] It's called Starts with Why. And he talks about the why, the what and the how.

[00:15:36] And it really resonated with Don and myself when we thought that is our why. We want to bring on

[00:15:43] people, whether they're elites, whether they're OGs of the trail, people that have

[00:15:51] experiences that can help us become better runners. And we consciously said to ourselves,

[00:15:57] we're not Sports Center. We're not ESPN. We're not going to be the podcast where you can

[00:16:03] hear an interview from the person that just won UTMB or Hard Rock. We do have some of those people

[00:16:11] on, but it's very different. The questions we ask are questions that can resonate with

[00:16:18] the listener and how they can implement strategies of these high performers in their own personal

[00:16:25] running. But I think that's one of the big differences that I still think is a differentiator

[00:16:30] between Trailrunner Nation and the, I don't know, three or four or five dozen other trailrunning

[00:16:36] podcasts out there that all are very, very good. But ours is we've been tried to keep that

[00:16:43] true North Y in our conversations and in our decisions.

[00:16:49] So I appreciate you both sharing that. With that, we always talk about on this podcast,

[00:16:55] these hinge moments. So one moment, one person, one event that makes all the difference in our

[00:17:00] lives. And adversity is sneaky, right? Adversity is going to show up in many different ways.

[00:17:04] But talk to us about sort of that hinge moment that happened with your podcast

[00:17:11] that really made both of you again reinforce what that Y was and what that North Star looked like.

[00:17:20] But Scott, I can't see up there, Scott. So when you're pointing at me to go,

[00:17:25] it gives me the luxury of saying, well, I'll let you answer that. But I do want to say

[00:17:32] that we had on our podcast, you were on our podcast and we spoke about hinge moments.

[00:17:36] And that's really something that has stuck with me. It's such a great concept. There's hinge

[00:17:41] moments in relationships that work it and in your running career and your business career.

[00:17:47] There's there's hinge moments and sometimes they look like like obstacles. But after you get

[00:17:51] past them, you'll look back at the hinge moment and said, it was placed perfectly

[00:17:55] for me to move on. I thought I was sabotage. I thought I was I was stopped. But in fact,

[00:18:01] because of that moment, that hinge point put me in a direction that allowed excuse me,

[00:18:08] that allowed me to move in a spot I never would have achieved had it not been for

[00:18:14] that moment. So coming up against those obstacles really can be opportunity and not

[00:18:20] something that you should get bummed out about or say that it was going great until then.

[00:18:26] It was placed there for a good reason. And so hinge point is very, very important whether it's

[00:18:31] on a rain, a run, a hinge point, a moment that a lesson's handed to you for the next time to

[00:18:37] do so much better. Hinge points are beautiful and need to be appreciated. So I love the hinge

[00:18:42] point. Did I talk around the question enough to pass it off to Scott without looking like I did?

[00:18:48] Scott? Well, I will say I'll start my answer the same way I started my previous answer.

[00:18:57] You learn more from your failures in most cases than you do in your successes. We've been very

[00:19:04] blessed to trail around our nation to have some successes. We started early when podcasts were

[00:19:08] just coming out and we've seen some really good success. But in recent years, I can talk to

[00:19:16] you about a hinge moment where we lost our way. And we had gotten to a point where we thought,

[00:19:25] we want to take our podcast to the next level and we were very fortunate to be in touch with and

[00:19:32] bring on a person that had a lot of radio experience like a ton. Like this guy was the

[00:19:42] cat's meow of radio broadcasting from a producing standpoint. And I'm sorry?

[00:19:49] So he was around with the Bee Gees? Yeah, at least. At least. I was around with the Bee Gees, Rob.

[00:19:56] Give me a break. Sorry to interrupt the story. No, anyway, so we had talked to this person and

[00:20:07] we brought them on as a partner and slowly, I guess almost imperceptibly, we were moving away from

[00:20:17] our why. Why we were doing the podcast. And we had gotten to a place where we were having

[00:20:23] interviews that we probably wouldn't have had if we had asked our why. And finally, Don and I,

[00:20:30] it took us a long time, but we finally decided that that was the causation. One of the things

[00:20:38] was a causation of us losing our way and losing our why. And we made the hard decision to let

[00:20:47] that person go. Great guy and very successful. We learned a lot from that experience. And I

[00:20:56] don't know whether if you're to give Don and myself the choice would we want to go through it

[00:21:02] again? I think we would because we really learned a lot and reinforced why we're doing this. And

[00:21:10] frankly added some energy after years of doing it to getting back to our why. And so I think

[00:21:18] that was a hinge moment that I can think of, Don. I want to jump in there and say,

[00:21:23] so we'll put a figure to what 600 and plus episodes, 13 years of weekly episodes every Friday

[00:21:30] release. So that people wouldn't miss an episode and miss a run. We wanted to be that running

[00:21:36] partner forum. But you mentioned a word in there. You said imperceptible, but I don't think it was.

[00:21:42] And this is like off the record talk just between Scott and I here too, just talking about it,

[00:21:47] which makes it interesting lessons for me anyway, is I think we did perceive it. We saw it. We looked

[00:21:53] at each other and go, I don't know. But we said, okay, we'll forego our instinct. We'll forego our

[00:22:00] why. Good point. We want to move forward. And in it confirmed that our intuition was right.

[00:22:07] When we were done with it, we're like, you know, that kind of that wasn't us. That wasn't,

[00:22:11] we weren't, we didn't feel comfortable with that. Like when we interview Rob, it's,

[00:22:15] you know, when we're done, it's just fantastic. We always say that was a great one. We really

[00:22:19] learned a lot and we hope the listeners like it feels right. But we were doing some interviews

[00:22:23] that just weren't us. We were, we felt like we were something else. They weren't in topics that

[00:22:28] were consistent with that why they were outside of it. And I think Simon Sending calls that

[00:22:34] when your, when your Y gets fuzzy. And I think we were living in a fuzzy Y in that spot.

[00:22:40] I appreciate you guys sharing that. But, you know, on that note, since you've had so many

[00:22:46] different interviews, it's different interviewing pros and podium finishers and contact, you know,

[00:22:53] content experts and understand the differences. But what about like your approach changes when

[00:23:00] you're interviewing individuals that differ in those scales? Well, that's a good question.

[00:23:08] I will tell you that a couple of things. One, sometimes we're in awe of people that come on.

[00:23:17] Our very first podcast episode was with Jeff Rose, who many of you may not know who he is,

[00:23:27] but he was top of his game and he had just come off of winning Western States 100 and

[00:23:33] had a lot of just amazing, amazing wins. And somehow I was able to get in touch with him

[00:23:43] and ask him if he wanted to come on the podcast. And he said yes.

[00:23:47] And I just went, I can't believe that Jeff Rose said yes. I actually ran Western States 100

[00:23:55] the year he ran after we had interviewed him. And I went into the restroom. He was in the

[00:24:02] restroom right before the race started and I was in there. And I was still in shock that he

[00:24:10] would actually talk to me or talk to Trailrunner Nation. So I think that in some cases,

[00:24:17] there's a little bit of fanboy that I see. But it quickly diminishes when you find out

[00:24:27] and start asking them questions. Every person that we've interviewed that has come on our show,

[00:24:34] if you ask them a question on how they could share their wisdom with the audience so they could be

[00:24:42] better, every single one of them open book, every single one of them. And I don't know if that's

[00:24:48] consistent across all communities or all populations, but in the Trailrunning community,

[00:24:55] that is one of the characteristics of our community. Everybody wants each other to succeed.

[00:25:02] And I think that that's been one of the reasons why we've been able to get some people on that

[00:25:08] normally wouldn't. Of all of the people that we've asked, I can think of two people that have

[00:25:16] turned us down. And neither of them were embedded in our Trail community. They were

[00:25:23] people that could have brought some good content, I think. But they didn't quite get our community

[00:25:30] personality. Did that answer your question, Rob? I don't know if it did. Maybe Don can try to

[00:25:36] answer it better than that. I'll throw something in there. And this will speak to the Trail

[00:25:43] community, but then I'll hopefully be able to extend it outside of it. When we talk to the

[00:25:50] elite athletes, the ones that are up front, the ones that finish the race hours ahead of anybody else,

[00:25:56] the rest of us that are looking at those elite athletes are in amazement of what they're able

[00:26:01] to do and the speed they can run it. And the elite athletes are looking back at us,

[00:26:06] still out there on the trail grinding hours afterwards. And they're in awe of the fact that

[00:26:12] the rest of them can be out there that long. And it's that mutual respect that creates

[00:26:18] a wonderful community. And so the people in the back are so...

[00:26:25] They have no idea what goes through the head of somebody that fast. And as it turns out,

[00:26:30] we all go through the same stuff. My legs hurt. I'm tired. How can I keep pushing? How much

[00:26:35] further till the next aid station? How much the next place to get aid or refill the water

[00:26:40] is hot out here? I just don't feel like being here. Guess what? That goes through

[00:26:44] everybody's head, regardless of where they are in the race. And I think that's what makes the

[00:26:51] difference of running, of interviewing up front or in the back. It doesn't matter because we're all

[00:26:56] the same. And I think in life, you know, we all go through stuff, whether you're super successful

[00:27:03] on top or you're climbing that ladder, there's that same respect on both sides. The ones that

[00:27:09] are already on top are thinking, man, you've got some ladders to climb and some steps to get.

[00:27:14] And I know how it is, but I respect you for taking that journey. And the ones that are

[00:27:19] taking the journey and looking at the guy on top or a gal on top are thinking, wow,

[00:27:23] you've done so much. There's a mutual respect that meets in the middle of that ladder

[00:27:28] that we can all agree that's a wonderful place to communicate.

[00:27:33] What's the old saying? A four-minute mile is the same distance as a 14-minute mile?

[00:27:38] Yeah, that's true. No, no, no, that's some good math. You've got to pull that out, Rob. That is some science.

[00:27:49] You know, each episode titles itself, maybe that'll be it.

[00:27:55] Some content to go. But yeah, it's an ancient Chinese saying, right? Even slow walkers arrive.

[00:28:01] Yeah. I remember here locally like Mika, is it Thues, right?

[00:28:12] So I ran into Mika. She won a 50-mile down here and this was before she won like Bigfoot 200,

[00:28:19] but she had done that for like a couple years. And I remember looking at her,

[00:28:25] I finished my 50k and she had finished her 50-mile ahead of me. And she had like these sunburns

[00:28:34] all over her legs. They were peeling, you know, and I said, oh man, what happened?

[00:28:40] So I was just stuck out there on the mountain. It was no big deal. And I was like, gee,

[00:28:47] life threatening to me if you're going to be out there get burned on that mountain like that.

[00:28:51] But I've always found that these types of athletes at that level, like there's just something different.

[00:29:00] In your experience interviewing some of the best, have you felt that as well? Like,

[00:29:06] I mean, you can just kind of see like, look, there's just something a little bit different

[00:29:09] about these individuals that because you have to be extremely, got to be obsessive

[00:29:15] to take it to that level. Have you encountered that?

[00:29:19] I think we've encountered least with any finisher is successful. And whether you're,

[00:29:27] you know, it's the 14-minute mile or the four-minute mile, your desire to finish and to push to the

[00:29:34] extreme because there can be an extreme for a four-minute or 14-mile, a 14-minute mile,

[00:29:40] they're both extreme that you have to define your why. Why is it important to me? You have to carry

[00:29:45] that. Why it's important to me to push through this harshness, this hardness, this sunburn on my legs

[00:29:53] was the reason that I received that was my reason bigger than the problem that I'm facing or that

[00:30:01] I survived. So I think regardless of where the person is in the continuum of finishers,

[00:30:08] they have to carry a reason that they finish in front and it has to be present all the way

[00:30:15] through. So every time there's an obstacle, you compare the obstacle and hold it next to your

[00:30:21] why or your reason. And if your reason outweighs and is larger than the problem, then you win.

[00:30:28] As soon as the problem becomes bigger than your reason or your push or your desire,

[00:30:32] when that isn't as big, then you lose. So it's that simple. It's apples and orange,

[00:30:37] one on each hand, which one's bigger and that's what pushes you through. And that happens on the

[00:30:42] trail. It happens with relationships, family, but on and on you go. One of the things that as I

[00:30:47] continue just talking on before, so I have to do that for me to be able to say anything because

[00:30:52] Scott likes to get in there is Scott says in the beginning of the podcast and maybe,

[00:30:59] just maybe it'll make us better humans or better people. And I used to tease him a little

[00:31:04] bit about that at first, but he was wise to say that because a lot of the conversations that we have

[00:31:11] circle around that. How does it make you a better person? More of what you envision or what you

[00:31:17] desire to become. And so I think that's whether you're in the front or the back,

[00:31:22] you just have to have established a strong why. I can think of two examples, Dr. Rob.

[00:31:31] One is Courtney DeWalter, who arguably could be considered one of the greatest

[00:31:38] ultra runners of all time. She's definitely building a legacy right now. And I think that she

[00:31:45] thinks differently than the majority of us. And specifically we had her on an episode where we

[00:31:53] had multiple people come on and talk about the pain cave, which an ultra running is this

[00:32:00] place where it can be very dehumanizing, very, very bad, dark place that you enter when you're out

[00:32:10] there running for very long distances. And most people interrupt Scott, not necessarily pain.

[00:32:18] It's not how much pain you're in, but correct. It is an emotional space that's just very negative.

[00:32:25] Yeah. Yeah, it could be not physical pain. But most people, I think when they think of the pain cave

[00:32:34] and become acquainted with it is how can I make it through the pain cave? How do I experience

[00:32:44] the pain cave so that it doesn't make me stop so I can continue to run through that time?

[00:32:53] Courtney has a different take on that, which I think is amazing. But here's the key thing.

[00:33:02] It's something that all of us can change that paradigm in our head. And this is what the

[00:33:08] way that she thinks of the pain cave. She looks forward to the pain cave. When she starts a race,

[00:33:15] she is excited about entering in the pain cave because she said she's building a habitat in

[00:33:21] that pain cave. She's making the pain cave bigger. She's hollowing it out. She's putting in a sofa.

[00:33:27] She's putting in a big screen TV. She's making friends with this pain cave.

[00:33:34] And so I think that just that paradigm shift in psychology of how do I make it through it

[00:33:40] versus how can I become friends with it? How can I make it enjoyable? I think that is one way

[00:33:47] how an elite athlete thinks differently. But I think that the key connection in there is

[00:33:54] we don't have to be elite to think the same way or to learn from Courtney. And the other one is

[00:33:59] a very quick one and Don, you're going to have to help me with the guy's name. Old time Western

[00:34:04] States runner back way back in the day. And when when Western States first got started, it was a race,

[00:34:11] right? A foot race, but people would run and they'd also walk. Well, this guy

[00:34:18] entered and he won it many times. He was the first guy that ever ran the entire thing.

[00:34:25] And people are going, that's stupid. Who is it, Don? Jim King. Jim King. Jim King.

[00:34:30] He said, why can't I run it? And they go, well, you got to walk the hills. And he goes,

[00:34:35] why do I need to walk the hills? He just put in his mind, I'm not going to agree upon

[00:34:41] the status quo or the barriers or the what's expected. I'm going to push beyond that. And

[00:34:50] he ran the flow. He was the first person to run the entire Western States.

[00:34:55] And he was successful multiple times, multiple wins. So I think now can you take that and

[00:35:03] equivocate? Is that a word? I just made that up. Yeah, it's okay. Rob, spray.

[00:35:08] To us middle and back packers, we're not, you know, I'm never going to run Western States the

[00:35:13] entire way. I just physically can't do that. But what I can do is take the philosophy that,

[00:35:20] you know, I'm not going to do this just because everybody else is doing this.

[00:35:23] I'm not going to put limits on myself. And I think that those are two examples,

[00:35:28] Jim King and Courtney DeWalter, how their elite minds work and how we can learn from them.

[00:35:35] Or put expectations on yourself just because everybody else is doing it. Maybe

[00:35:39] you're going to walk, you know, half the speed and no one's doing that. But you're

[00:35:43] going to set your own limits based on your own, own abilities and not march to whatever beat that's

[00:35:50] accepted, you know, becoming your own. I think Dr. Rob, use that earlier, your own North Star,

[00:35:56] you know, a podcast killer, whatever that comment that made a lot of talk.

[00:36:07] I love the pauses. Pauses don't make me uncomfortable at all. I don't have time to think.

[00:36:12] Robert Downey, a little different, different Robert. Robert Downey Jr., when he obviously made

[00:36:23] immense talent in what he did and struggled with addiction really hard his life, obviously.

[00:36:29] And he talked about when he came out of addiction, it was Mel Gibson that helped him

[00:36:33] out with that. Mel Gibson kind of phrased it said, you know, it's about hugging the cactus.

[00:36:38] So I think when I hear you just mentioned the Courtney de Walter take in terms of the pain cave,

[00:36:43] it I think about like hugging the cactus. Like we have character defects. I think we all have

[00:36:50] these character defects. So that which is even a strength of never giving up can also be a weakness.

[00:36:55] But whatever that character defect is, we're never going to get rid of it. That's the thing.

[00:37:00] Like we want to like, it's not like a garden where we can just pull the weeds. Like the

[00:37:05] weeds are going to be there, but we still just we want the flower. So I mean, I think of it's like

[00:37:09] we have to be able to hug the cactus. And I've always seen that that strategy of

[00:37:17] let's say it's impatience or anxiety or irritability, like just recognizing it.

[00:37:24] It's a little bit different than walking that but if you just recognize it doesn't have to

[00:37:28] say, Hey, I'm really anxious. But hey, I noticed some kind of feeling anxious towards this.

[00:37:33] It seems to like take the power away from it. But it also seems that I kind of build that relationship

[00:37:39] with that character defect. And I know I'm taking a little bit of a tangent here. But my question

[00:37:46] is when it comes to that part of life and what we learn like on the trails and then what can

[00:37:53] be combined like with life and these life lessons, what are the biggest ones that you've

[00:37:59] learned from trail running that equates to life and life lessons? Well, there is the saying that

[00:38:11] a 100 mile race is life experienced in one day. And I think that the biggest thing that I learn

[00:38:20] from from these longer races is you may enter the pain cave or you may end up having

[00:38:27] a time frame that you are emotionally low or physically exhausted. And the other saying

[00:38:39] in ultra running is don't worry, it's going to get better. There are rhythms in an ultra race.

[00:38:48] And I think there are also rhythms in life so that if you've gotten to a point where you

[00:38:54] are hopeless in life, realize that it's not going to last. Eventually there will be something

[00:39:05] happen. Someone will come into your life or circumstances may change where you can lose the

[00:39:13] hopelessness and gain hope. And I think that knowing that there is a change helps. Now,

[00:39:22] that is also, the reverse also happens. And I think that's important to realize too.

[00:39:30] When you enter a 100 mile race, it's not going to be roses and unicorns and rainbows the entire

[00:39:37] time. You know that. If you don't, you're going to figure that out. So you can anticipate in

[00:39:44] life that there are going to be some rough spots. And I think if you go into it with

[00:39:51] the expectation that there's going to be rough spots, then you're more equipped to be prepared to

[00:39:57] handle those rough spots. And knowing that it's not going to stay that way. I think that's really,

[00:40:04] really important. That's one of the biggest life lessons I've learned from ultra running.

[00:40:11] I think one of the biggest life lessons I've learned and it translates so well to reality

[00:40:17] in real life is that you don't do anything by yourself. You know, as tough as you are, as determined,

[00:40:24] as perfect race strategy you have in your mind, some the wheels going to fall off and

[00:40:30] and with good fortune, there's going to be somebody that picks that wheel up and puts it back on

[00:40:35] for you and kicks you down the road. Now, whether it's someone in an aid station putting

[00:40:40] you back together physically or emotionally or mentally, that person drops in at the right

[00:40:44] time, says the right thing and pushes you on to the next. Whether it's a fellow trail runner that

[00:40:50] comes up behind you and says, hey, how's it going today? Or what a race, not kind of cold, whatever

[00:40:55] it is. It's all of a sudden a shared experience teaming up. It's crazy as you look towards the

[00:41:04] tougher parts of I'm going to call life. I'm going to call part of the trail run. You can

[00:41:09] substitute any word. I don't want this to be to your audience or they're not all trail

[00:41:13] runners. So I try to make some comparisons, but when we're out there running, things get hard.

[00:41:22] It gets dark and you go through the night. You find a fellow runner and you say, hey,

[00:41:26] let's do this next section together. And it's that moment that shared community experience,

[00:41:32] the bonding of accomplishing hard things with someone makes it possible.

[00:41:39] And Scott and I have had the good opportunity to announce some ends of rate in an end of the

[00:41:45] races as announcers. And you watch, especially in the latter part of the race, when things get

[00:41:52] really hard, the people up front, they're on their own mission and they're experiencing

[00:41:56] things a little bit differently. But when you start to get into the latter part of the race,

[00:42:02] you see them come in in groups, groups of three groups of six, just they all do the

[00:42:07] hard thing together. They pull together the unite strengths and sometimes you get in there and you

[00:42:13] get pulled along with the group. And sometimes you're pulling the group, but there's a shared

[00:42:18] experience and life waxes and wanes. It gets hard. It gets easy. It gets hard. You're hoping

[00:42:22] someone in your group is experiencing the easy to help you just plug in and move along.

[00:42:29] So I think what we see as Scott said races are just life, you know, life in a day, life in

[00:42:36] a life in a run. And the same thing happens with life experiences. There's someone around you that's

[00:42:42] probably been through it wants to help you through it, wants needs to know about it. You need to

[00:42:46] express how you're feeling so they can say, I can help with that or let's do that together.

[00:42:52] I think there's a space on the trail that we feel is very safe when we're out there.

[00:42:57] We talk about it a lot with said on the trail stays on the trail. That's a saying and a

[00:43:02] secret. We stick to it, but we accomplish hard things together as a community because we trust

[00:43:08] one another because we don't we take down the facade or the shield that we're super tough.

[00:43:14] We open up. We don't complain. We're realistic and we make statements to find solution not to

[00:43:21] make complaints. And so that's the biggest lesson I've learned. Nothing hard gets done

[00:43:28] alone or many times hard things can be done with group effort. That's probably my biggest lesson.

[00:43:37] Doug's pale on all that. Can you guys talk about like the wholeheartedness of

[00:43:41] the trail running? I mean, you know, the nature centeredness of it obviously the

[00:43:48] belonging in the community, but even kind of the spirituality that ties into it and your

[00:43:52] experience with it. Scott, I'll lead with this. I remember watching a documentary and it was

[00:43:57] about maybe it was in Arizona. It was about a Native American tribe that had a run that was done and

[00:44:04] this current day runner was taught by his father, grandfather about running the trail.

[00:44:11] And he said it's much it's a prayer and it's a prayer with mother earth and the rhythm,

[00:44:19] the feet hitting the ground is part of the connection and the prayer to nature.

[00:44:25] And you can hear the wind come by, maybe a bird chirp, maybe it's the river that you spoke about

[00:44:30] earlier along the trail. It's a symphony of amazingness that you can lose yourself in and plug into

[00:44:39] that our DNA that's been around longer than we have has really grew up and evolved around this

[00:44:45] stuff. And it is very natural and intuitive and rare. You don't get it at a stoplight.

[00:44:51] You don't get it at the side of a road. You have different sounds there, but there's something about

[00:44:56] nature sound that are true and resonate and have a place. Hey, wouldn't it be nice

[00:45:05] if we could be out on the trail running for more hours than we spent on social media

[00:45:13] in a given day? You think how many hours your phone probably tracks how many hours you spend

[00:45:21] on social media? What if we all decided we're going to be out on the trail more time in a

[00:45:29] given day than we spend on social media? I think that that would make us much better people

[00:45:37] because when we're out on the trail, we are connected with nature. I work in agriculture

[00:45:45] and there are things called cations and anions in the soil. There are positive and negatively charged

[00:45:53] electrons in soil. And this may be getting a little bit too fuzzy, but being in contact with soil,

[00:46:01] there's an energy to it. Being out on the trail with your ears unplugged and I'll be the first

[00:46:07] to admit I like to listen to audiobooks, podcasts, music while I run. But I think that

[00:46:13] by unplugging from that and more importantly, not having your phone, not having social media,

[00:46:23] not taking phone calls and just being out in nature with your thoughts, I think that there's a

[00:46:28] connectivity, a spirituality, a zen. We've talked to what was the book that we reviewed,

[00:46:37] the zen and the art of running. Anyway, I think that there's a lot that comes into play there.

[00:46:47] It just didn't hit me until I asked the question. I think that I'm going to in my own personal life

[00:46:53] look at how many hours I spend on social media during a given day and that includes YouTube.

[00:46:57] I do like some YouTube. And I'm going to try to see if I can run more hours in a given

[00:47:03] day than I spend on social media. Rob, can I add to that? In the book you're thinking about

[00:47:09] the author anyway is Katie Arnold and she's written a couple of books. So Running Home

[00:47:13] and then she has another one coming out that has the zen of running. That's not it?

[00:47:17] Nope. Scott's going to pull it out. You're thinking of a puke and rally.

[00:47:22] That's another good one. Yes, absolutely. Great book and Learn to Be Patient is another

[00:47:27] great book that we have on this shelf. And I'm going to prove Scott wrong. He's going to

[00:47:31] find it and he's going to bear a ceiling. Here's what he's going to say. Oh, I don't seem to have it.

[00:47:35] So he doesn't get proved wrong here. But I think it doesn't.

[00:47:42] It's you can't see it. It's not the Zen of Running. It was called The Tau of Running by

[00:47:47] Kerry Dudney, Gary Dudney. And then you can see I have bookmarks in this one. This is such a

[00:47:53] good book. So wasn't Zen your right? It was it was The Tau of Running. Yeah, your right,

[00:47:59] Scott. That was good. You proved me wrong. That was that was that was a good find.

[00:48:03] But Katie Arnold's a great, great author and another good book to pull out after you by

[00:48:08] puke and rally and Learn to Be Patient. I wanted to add it doesn't matter if you run or not,

[00:48:18] find something, find something that you connect with, whether it's quilting,

[00:48:24] whether it's bingo, it doesn't matter. Find something that your heart sings to that you

[00:48:30] resonate, that you enjoy the community. Just find your passion and then press play and just

[00:48:37] enjoying and back away from the all the stress, the build it's due or the hardship that that's

[00:48:45] happening somewhere that you have to solve. Find your passion and immerse yourself in that with

[00:48:51] at least some time that's dedicated to that. Like Scott says, you dedicate some time to social media.

[00:48:58] Well, dedicate some time to things that you enjoy. And Scott's done that very well. He is

[00:49:04] early in the week or the month he puts his running times and dates in there and schedules

[00:49:10] around those. So that's the way he's he stays consistent as he prioritizes. He puts it in

[00:49:16] the calendar, he reserves it and he goes, no, I'm not available then but I can at 10. So he's

[00:49:23] has a hard spot in his day to run. And that's a good idea, Scott. I'm glad you do that. That's a

[00:49:28] good example. We have two potential now for the titles of the podcast. When you were

[00:49:36] mentioning that in terms of the time, I'll check that out as well about which one I spend more

[00:49:40] time on. That'd be really, really close. You know, I always think this as well side note,

[00:49:46] like if we all spoke to each other like we spoke to our dogs, how wonderful the world would be,

[00:49:54] right? Because you are such a good boy, Scott. You are. Good boy, Scott. Good boy.

[00:50:03] I mean, she's just sick. I don't think that would be nice. But I'm with you.

[00:50:08] I'm with you, Rob. We should be as kind to our fellow humans as we are to our dog or cat or

[00:50:17] goldfish, whatever your pet is. Do people talk to the goldfish?

[00:50:25] I never talk to them. Maybe that's why you're... Maybe you need a goldfish, Rob.

[00:50:30] I was just going to say, this thought had come to me and I want your take on it is the wind.

[00:50:41] And I think the wind is the most powerful element because it really exemplifies it,

[00:50:49] but accentuates all the other elements that are there. So if it's raining and windy, I mean,

[00:50:56] it's pretty brutal. It's cold and windy or hot and windy. But when it comes to the wind,

[00:51:05] I'm always amazed how when we were running downwind, I never notice it. I never hear it.

[00:51:14] I think it's my own strength. I think, man, it just feels really good. And then the times...

[00:51:21] The only times when I turn and then I'm facing the wind, so when I have that headwind,

[00:51:26] do I actually hear it? And I'm like, wow, it's really tough now. But it's only then do I recognize

[00:51:35] how powerful that tailwind was and how it's helped me along the way. And that's how I kind of think

[00:51:40] a lot of times how God operates is we don't recognize the gifts and the gratitude when we

[00:51:45] have them. It's only when we face the adversity do we realize, hey, the hand that God had

[00:51:52] helping us along the way. And I mentioned this as well, like we ought to praise the tailwind,

[00:51:56] but you got to cheer on the headwind as well, because that is what makes us better for always

[00:52:01] running downwind with a tailwind. We don't get that much better. It's only when we face that

[00:52:06] headwind. But I wanted to throw that out as sort of a topic and see if you could make it even

[00:52:11] better. Scott, do you have something on wind? And I'm ready to speak to it when you're done.

[00:52:18] Go. Well, you know, maybe I was exaggerating. Maybe I haven't don't have all of my thoughts.

[00:52:23] I'll start with this. I think that that when we're in where we have wind at our back,

[00:52:32] we're learning, we're learning some skills and we're we're processing and and figuring

[00:52:37] some things out so when inevitably we do need to turn and wind is in front of us.

[00:52:43] Those lessons we've learned during the easy times are ready to be used in the hard times

[00:52:48] that the wind is is there timely and we're and we we're gathering up the tools that we need to

[00:52:56] face it head on. And when we come out of the wind and we've practiced these tools, now we're even

[00:53:02] better and we can we have more tools and more skills and developed along the way.

[00:53:07] When you're teaching a child to walk, you're kind of holding it against gravity. That's

[00:53:11] down. That's the downwind and at our back. But then we let go and the child needs to be able to

[00:53:17] power itself, walk on its own. And that's an important part. So I think the wind at our back

[00:53:24] is there for a good reason. It's preparing us for the inevitable that when it's going to be at

[00:53:29] our face. And we should acknowledge that. Well, I guess I didn't have a whole lot, Scott. I

[00:53:35] went into teaching a child to walk. So clean this mess up.

[00:53:39] Well, I was just thinking, you know, you had had alluded to the wind and and in your faith

[00:53:49] in God. And I was thinking about something that I learned as a young man in my faith. And that is

[00:53:55] a kite and wind. If you were to take a kite and just throw it up in the wind without

[00:54:02] the string that anchors it to anchors it to the ground, it's going to fall.

[00:54:09] A kite cannot fly alone unless it is grounded. And so I think that that yes, wind is important

[00:54:16] and it's a lot of fun to play around with. And it can really take a kite up into the atmosphere

[00:54:23] and really be successful. But it also needs to be grounded. And it needs to be in you need

[00:54:29] to have control of that kite. Otherwise, you know, you can be up there. You've probably done this as a

[00:54:36] kid, you know, you're flying your kite and it's just a ball. And all of a sudden you run out of

[00:54:40] string or you lose hand, you lose the grip of the string and that kite flies around for a little

[00:54:47] bit and inevitably just plummets to the ground. How'd you like that metaphor, Freeman? I realize

[00:54:55] I shouldn't have gone first. I'll tell you that. I don't know if it answered his question.

[00:55:00] If it answered your question, Rob, but it's profound. It was brilliant. No, I love it. I love it.

[00:55:25] I think I'll go ahead and download at Kukoradio.com.

[00:55:28] Um, Toronto Nation, what question should I be asking that that I haven't asked?

[00:55:38] Boy, that's a good one. Don, you got something philosophical, don't you?

[00:55:44] Sure. I mean, I said the wind thing. I can only go uphill from that.

[00:55:48] Why do you guys do it? Why? How? Where's the biggest struggle? Where?

[00:55:53] What obstacles have you faced? I think we talked about bringing somebody in, making a fuzzy why,

[00:55:58] but what keeps us going? I'm going to ask Scott that. Let me take your question

[00:56:04] that was directed at me and what keeps you going, Scott? What makes you show up and move forward?

[00:56:11] You know, that is a good question, Don. And Don and I, we run together. We're running

[00:56:17] partners, not just podcasting partners. And I will say that early on we made the decision that

[00:56:24] if it came down to podcast versus running or podcast versus friendship,

[00:56:32] the podcast is the first one to go. But why do we do it? Sometimes it's not fun,

[00:56:40] but I will tell you every single time, even when Don and I have been,

[00:56:46] you know, really not having fun, every time we finish a podcast and we let the guest go off,

[00:56:54] he and I stop and we just kind of evaluate how it went. And Don has a famous saying,

[00:56:59] oh, that was the best one yet. And I think that's what keeps us going is we are continually

[00:57:06] learning. We try not to talk as much as we did on this podcast because we don't really have that

[00:57:11] much to say. We want to ask questions of our guests and let them talk and let us learn. And I think

[00:57:18] that's probably the secret that has energized Don and I for all this time is learning and being

[00:57:26] curious about what the guest has to say. If you're finding good guests, you know, part of the

[00:57:36] yeah, that was the best ever wasn't wasn't our comments. You know, it's never our comments.

[00:57:41] And we've even said we would have had not 600 plus episodes, we'd have one and a half episode

[00:57:47] because that's about all we have to be able to share. And why was difficult on this podcast to

[00:57:55] come on as the ones behind the mic instead of in front of the mic? It's

[00:58:01] we didn't expect really to have much to share. Why would Dr. Bell want to talk to you?

[00:58:06] He's taken a big mistake. I thought he was wise and brilliant, but obviously there's a miss there.

[00:58:14] But I think our friendship has is one of the things that and it wasn't even a question,

[00:58:19] but I would just say I enjoy doing it with Scott. I lean forward when he's going to give

[00:58:24] an answer. I'm like, what's he going to say or a question? I wonder what it's going to be.

[00:58:28] And it's never I'm disappointed. It's always like God, that was a good one.

[00:58:32] You know, I'm glad to have a partner. We said this in the beginning before we started,

[00:58:36] you're leaning forward to intro your podcast. And I said, hey, before you start, how difficult is

[00:58:43] this to do with just you? Well, Scott, it's easy for me. I was with Scott's here, he'll pick up

[00:58:49] the slack. I'll pick up his slack. Together we will move through this like a difficult time

[00:58:55] in life. You do it with a partner becomes better with a partner. And so with Scott,

[00:58:59] I think, well, no matter what happens, we'll figure it out between his creativity and comments or

[00:59:06] a ridiculous moment. We'll get through this thing. But man, question to you, Dr. Bell,

[00:59:12] how difficult it must be to be solo on this? So was that a real question? I mean,

[00:59:23] I think the difficult part when it comes is having a stream of consciousness to be able

[00:59:26] to take somebody's answer and dig a little bit deeper while at the same time listening to the answer

[00:59:34] then trying to think of what's going to be the next question that I can ask, you know,

[00:59:38] because I have a general outline history. And I'm going in with the template of, hey,

[00:59:44] what is it that I kind of want to get out of for them to share? At the same time, I like

[00:59:50] that stream of consciousness and having them go a little bit deeper. So the real tough part,

[00:59:54] though, is to structure it and then go off script and bring it back while being able to

[01:00:03] have my wits about me and ask the right question in sort of the right sequence piece. That becomes a

[01:00:07] really tough part. And I can appreciate that. Scott and I have with two people we have,

[01:00:12] we have some hand signals between us. So I've got the next question, which gives the other

[01:00:16] person the ability just to pull back and listen and be present and curious and what

[01:00:23] is the listener hearing and what question might they have? And Scott's got the next question. So

[01:00:29] I don't have to worry about it. I'm just, I just remove myself and just get creative and listen

[01:00:34] and wonder and curious and write down the thought that comes to my mind. And then I'll follow up

[01:00:40] if there isn't an immediate follow up. So with two people, the luxury of leaving for a moment

[01:00:47] and then reentering, not always on always on being a solo. You have to listen and be present so you

[01:00:55] don't miss anything and then ask your question. And the guy says or gal says, dude, I just told you

[01:01:02] that. That was what I said to the last three minutes. What are you? What are you asking that

[01:01:07] question for? And so having someone else with you is really, really, really important, at least

[01:01:14] we joke. We do a little bit of preparation for each episode and sometimes we come with

[01:01:19] half a dozen questions and we know it's a great episode if we only asked one of those six questions

[01:01:27] because then we know that we were really listening to the guest and understanding what

[01:01:34] they were saying and digging deeper on the conversation versus, hey, I have this question,

[01:01:40] this question, this question. And that's one of the things when we first started this.

[01:01:46] Sometimes we wouldn't even listen to the guest. We had 10 questions we were going to ask and as

[01:01:51] soon as they were done answering question number one, we went directly to question number two,

[01:01:55] whether it was related or not. And I think that that's been one of the things that we've learned

[01:02:00] over the years is let's just have a discussion. We joke around with our guests and say, hey,

[01:02:06] it's really conversational. It's like we're lacing up our shoes and we're going for a trail run

[01:02:10] and we're just going to have a conversation. No, I love it. Guys, I mean, I love what you

[01:02:16] guys do. I listen to your podcast just to even get ideas for myself and really appreciate you

[01:02:23] one taking the time with the links there to follow you of course, but just want to thank

[01:02:28] you guys for coming on the show. Well, Dr. Rob Bell, we appreciate you. You've been

[01:02:35] on our podcast a number of times and always leave us with something to think about. You

[01:02:43] help the people, the listeners that are listening think about things and you make us

[01:02:48] a better podcast and most definitely better people. So we do thank you.

[01:02:53] Hey, I'm going to put you on the spot, Rob. We've read and we've done podcasts about

[01:02:59] your two books that you have in your background there. I can't wait to be patient and puke

[01:03:04] and rally. Is there a new book coming? Can we get you on our podcast with a new book?

[01:03:09] Are we close to publishing again? Well, I mean, I can't get you one of the old books.

[01:03:16] I mean, I got to get you a copy of No One Gets There Alone.

[01:03:20] Oh, yeah. Let's do that. Let's do that. Yeah, Don alluded to that, didn't you?

[01:03:26] Yeah, yeah. That's what made you think about that. I'll send that one to you.

[01:03:29] I think it's an important thing in life, right? You know, we get we look around for help when

[01:03:34] things get hard. We naturally look left or right. We just do and metaphorically, you know,

[01:03:39] we look left to right. How many times do we do that when we're faced a problem? And even

[01:03:44] when we're solo, we probably look around, look inside, look somewhere, look above. We're

[01:03:50] looking for answers. No one gets there alone. Let's do that. That'd be great, great episode.

[01:03:55] What I mean, a great episode for Scott and I to learn a lot. And maybe people will enjoy it too.

[01:04:00] But when I mean great episode means, yes, I want to talk about that.

[01:04:05] Hey, Rob, I just realized something. I've known Don for how long, Don? 20 years?

[01:04:10] And you know, a lot of through hiking trail hikers give each other trail names. I just

[01:04:19] realized I have a trail name for Don. I'm going to call him Socrates. He's like a philosopher, man.

[01:04:26] I've never heard him speak this much. He's like dropping philosophical bombs left and right.

[01:04:32] Scott, if you just listen to me, it's there all the time.

[01:04:38] That's the next question though. Hey, thank you guys. Thank you, Rob. Oh, thank you so much.

[01:04:55] To find out more about Dr. Rob, visit his website at DrRobBell.com or follow him on Twitter

[01:05:01] at DrRobBell and subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast platform to get the next episode

[01:05:08] of mental toughness as soon as it's available. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.